High Flying Defense: Good or Bad? - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

polak · 03-31-2016, 11:36 AM

Pretty simple question, we seem to have one of the best d-cores when it comes to offense and one of the worst when it comes to defense. The Flames broadcast team likes to give them a lot of credit for jumping in the rush but it's looking more and more like a bad way to play hockey in the NHL.

Can we compete with a system like that?

If not, is it a personnel issue or a coaching issue?

agulati · 03-31-2016, 11:41 AM

Confidence in goaltending plays a part in the defensive play of d-men.

It doesn't completely excuse sub-par play at moments, but definitely is a factor

Vinny01 · 03-31-2016, 11:43 AM

Disagree that our blueline can't play defense. Gio and Brodie certainly can and Dougie will get better.

3 Dmen with 40+pts is awesome

Fan in Exile · 03-31-2016, 11:45 AM

It's a bit of both. It's Hartley's system but then again maybe if he had stronger forwards then perhaps he would be able to adjust his system. People keep on pointing to our goals for and saying goal scoring isn't a problem so adding guys to our two top lines is not a huge priority and Colborne is worthless but if our D isn't jumping up all the time, we would be near the bottom of the league in goals scored. There is also too much focus on goaltending. Good goaltending gets us into contention for the playoffs but it doesn't make us a Cup contender. Lots of other issues to address.

Itse · 03-31-2016, 11:47 AM

I don't think there's anything fundamentally wrong with the basic idea, but to be succesful you absolutely must have good goaltending.

To be really succesful you'd also need forwards that are a dangerous on their own (so there's too many guys for opposition to cover), plus the team in general needs to have the puck a lot and transition really, really well.

And yeah, I think our offense depends too much on our defensemen.

FBI · 03-31-2016, 11:49 AM

I would like to see our D with good goaltending.. I think they would shine.

Coach · 03-31-2016, 11:55 AM

Everyone has to be able to play 200 ft in today's NHL, forwards and defense. There are roles yes, but teams can't waste roster space on specialties. The basics for playing hockey in the NHL is being able to defend properly when you don't have the puck (ie, not just when the puck is below your blueline). If you can't do that, IMO, no matter how potent your offensive abilities are, you will never be part of a championship team.

I do think goaltending has been the biggest factor for our lack of success this season. Followed by slow starts for our best defense (Hamilton and Gio stumbled out of the gate, Brodie injured), and by regression of vets that played big roles in last season's success (Wideman, Russell, Hudler).

SuperMatt18 · 03-31-2016, 11:56 AM

Other thing is I don't think we get caught on the rush that often, so I actually don't think it has to do with our d-men jumping into the play.

Most of our issue is strictly from our defensive zone coverage, which I think is more of a system issue.

btimbit · 03-31-2016, 11:58 AM

I blame the systems/coaching. Sure you want to play to your strengths, but we do that too much to the point where we aren't covering our weaknesses, which is goaltending. This high flying defensive system would work great with a better goalie, but if we're only getting league average goaltending or worse, you need d-zone coverage to be the #1 priority over providing offense.

FlatLandFlamesFan · 03-31-2016, 11:58 AM

I see more of a problem with the "soft" style we play .
The collapse to the net style , works but we never seem to have a winger on the boards for the "hard around" and it goes to the other teams D man on the point.
Definitely need to adjust our D-zone system, and we'll do fine.

Huntingwhale · 03-31-2016, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polak

Pretty simple question, we seem to have one of the best d-cores when it comes to offense and one of the worst when it comes to defense. The Flames broadcast team likes to give them a lot of credit for jumping in the rush but it's looking more and more like a bad way to play hockey in the NHL.

Can we compete with a system like that?

If not, is it a personnel issue or a coaching issue?

Good teams need puck-moving D. The Flames are lucky enough to have 4-5 guys on any given night who are like that. Many teams only have 1 or 2. The way the NHL is designed now, you need D who can get the puck up to the forwards or make offensive plays.

As is usually the case this season, goaltending is our #1 fault. And the forwards who aren't that strong in the defensive zone either. Coaching certainly plays a role in our lacklustre defence. But Hartley isn't the one giving the puck away at our own blueline or making a bad pass up the middle.

We competed pretty darn well last season with this system, but for whatever reason our vets have regressed a great deal and goaltending went out the window.

I personally like our D's style right now. Remember the ol' days of Sarich and Aucoin struggling to move the puck out? Does anyone want that back?

mdubz · 03-31-2016, 12:03 PM

A "High Flying" style like this only works when you have a top 10 goalie that can be trusted to make those big saves when needed, and defensively aware forwards that are capable of covering for those pinches.

Parallex · 03-31-2016, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by polak

Pretty simple question, we seem to have one of the best d-cores when it comes to offense and one of the worst when it comes to defense.

Completely disagree on the second part. Our individual blueliners (or at least the top three) are amoung the best in the league on both ends of the rink. It's the systems that stink.

Erick Estrada · 03-31-2016, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Other thing is I don't think we get caught on the rush that often, so I actually don't think it has to do with our d-men jumping into the play.

Most of our issue is strictly from our defensive zone coverage, which I think is more of a system issue.

Yeah the underlying issue is defensive zone coverage as no defensemen got caught in the rush last night as there were numerous times the goaltenders were left alone to fend for themselves with nearly everyone back. The fact the PK is the worst in the league kind of reinforces that the defensemen really have issues letting players get behind them and into open scoring chances.

Erick Estrada · 03-31-2016, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parallex

Completely disagree on the second part. Our individual blueliners (or at least the top three) are amoung the best in the league on both ends of the rink. It's the systems that stink.

Totally disagree. Brodie and Giordano are competent at times in their own end but nowhere near the best in the league in their own end. Nowhere close. This team doesn't have a shutdown defender. This team doesn't have that Willie Mitchell type guy that isn't flashy but really hard to play against for opposing forwards.

dino7c · 03-31-2016, 12:08 PM

Does anyone out there seriously NOT think goal tending is the Flames number one issue? They have problems elsewhere but until that is solved its hard to really judge anything else. Ortio is by far our best option at the moment and he had terrible numbers in the AHL this season

Flames Draft Watcher · 03-31-2016, 12:08 PM

A real NHL starting goaltender would make the defensive abilities of our defensive unit look about 5-10 times better. I think that's about all that is required to right the ship.

I guess in an ideal world you'd have a d-man who can play top 4 who is mobile, skilled, big, strong, mean and tough. We've lacked that crease clearing, mean hitting d-man like Regehr ever since we dealt him. Engelland does a pretty good job but is more of a 3rd pairing guy.

But overall I don't think our defense is a weak point at all. It's one of our strengths. Goaltending makes our defense look more one way than they actually are.

Erick Estrada · 03-31-2016, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dino7c

Does anyone out there seriously NOT think goal tending is the Flames number one issue? They have problems elsewhere but until that is solved its hard to really judge anything else. Ortio is by far our best option at the moment and he had terrible numbers in the AHL this season

There's not a single team in the group running for last overall that is sitting there because of only one reason.

Calgary4LIfe · 03-31-2016, 12:14 PM

Well, last year I would say the Flames played the same system with a very active defence, and were 14th in the league in goals against. The goaltending was average.

I would argue that if they upgrade the goaltending, then it could still very much be a sound strategy.

I do think that if a team is considered a legitimate contender, they have to get their goals against into the top 10. I can't think of too many teams that win cups playing 'loosey-goosey'. I do think, however, that a team needs to play to their own strengths. If the Flames had a less offensive and less mobile group of defencemen, it would be an absolutely horrendous system to try and play. I don't think that is the case, and even Engelland hasn't shown himself to be terrible at all within the confines of Hartley's system.

I do think that the forwards need to always be aware and and cover for the defence, as well (again) having reliable goaltending in order to make it effective.

What I do think is that Treliving (and Burke) want to increase the size on the backend, so I would imagine the system will alter depending on the personnel.

I am a believer in creating a system specifically for your individual team to enhance the strengths while limiting the weaknesses. I didn't like Brent Sutter because I felt his system was a poor fit for the existing personnel on the roster. I didn't like Brian Sutter's system either, but in his tenure the team made personnel moves and I would say it was the wrong time to axe Brian as he finally had a team that I thought fit his system.

Just some observations over the years on my part. You take a look at LA - Darryl's system fits really, really well on that team and they have success. Move over to Chicago, and their system fits that team very well. If you were to switch systems between those teams, would they have as much success?

I think a GM and a coach need to work together to assure that the way the team is being built and the systems implemented correspond to one another. I do feel this is happening in Calgary. Calgary just needs further depth up front (though it is nice to see reliable secondary scoring now - however, I would like to see a larger sample size), and they are in massive need of a reliable goalie (or two if Ortio comes out poorly again).

Erick Estrada · 03-31-2016, 12:17 PM

I actually think Drew Doughty has become a better player under Darryl Sutter compared to the player he was prior which was more in the style of Flames defenders today. I don't think the Flames need to go to a trap style of defense but there has to be more structure to their game than always looking up ice to make a quick transition before you even have the puck.