[Signing] Flames sign Jankowski to two yr ELC starting in 16/17. Will report to Stockton on ATO

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Raymond cough.

But yes, overall Treliving has been a wizard.

I don't blame Treliving for Raymond. No one could predict he would lose 90% of his ability and become a husk of a player. At worst I would say that contract was one year too long at the time. Everything else is judged purely with the benefit of hindsight.

People rag on the Hiller signing too but his useless moments are at least outweighed by good moments IMO. Hiller was good last year, without him there's no playoffs. Can't fault Treliving for not knowing that Hiller would turn into the worst goalie in the league over the summer. That's what makes the criticisms that he didn't conjure a good goalie out thin air this year so amusing. He thought that his pair would repeat their previous good years, but they didn't come close. How do you predict that? People expected him magically obtain someone else's starter when the season was weeks old, after his goalies were proven inadequate. Yeah, good luck with that.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

But he somehow has gotten the Flames to the point where they have minimal cap room available (a sign in my opinion that the re-build is close to complete) and the on-ice results are not yet there.

Rome wasn't built in a day. $27M worth of dead weight expires over the next two years, 32M over 3 if you include Stajan and Bouma. Cap constraints are minor, IMO.

Treliving knows what he's doing, he'll figure it out.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

I don't blame Treliving for Raymond. No one could predict he would lose 90% of his ability and become a husk of a player. At worst I would say that contract was one year too long at the time. Everything else is judged purely with the benefit of hindsight.

People rag on the Hiller signing too but his useless moments are at least outweighed by good moments IMO. Hiller was good last year, without him there's no playoffs. Can't fault Treliving for not knowing that Hiller would turn into the worst goalie in the league over the summer. That's what makes the criticisms that he didn't conjure a good goalie out thin air this year so amusing. He thought that his pair would repeat their previous good years, but they didn't come close. How do you predict that? People expected him magically obtain someone else's starter when the season was weeks old, after his goalies were proven inadequate. Yeah, good luck with that.

Hiller last year started 52 games, won 26 and had a .918 save pct. $4.5 well spent. We needed a veteran netminder to stabilize the crease. Can't hang his shocking decline on Treliving.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

I don't blame Treliving for Raymond. No one could predict he would lose 90% of his ability and become a husk of a player. At worst I would say that contract was one year too long at the time. Everything else is judged purely with the benefit of hindsight.

People rag on the Hiller signing too but his useless moments are at least outweighed by good moments IMO. Hiller was good last year, without him there's no playoffs. Can't fault Treliving for not knowing that Hiller would turn into the worst goalie in the league over the summer. That's what makes the criticisms that he didn't conjure a good goalie out thin air this year so amusing. He thought that his pair would repeat their previous good years, but they didn't come close. How do you predict that? People expected him magically obtain someone else's starter when the season was weeks old, after his goalies were proven inadequate. Yeah, good luck with that.

Vancouver gave Raymond a get out of town free card.

The rest of the league followed and he earned a 1 year near the league min deal on a try out contract with the Leafs.


So basically the rest of the GMs saw Raymond for what he was.

[Bingo]

That and I honestly believe the Flames' brass thought the team would suck for two to three years and wanted to get to the cap floor with character guys and avoid chasing terrible UFA signings.

adding a guy like Engelland at an inflated price, doubling your goalie budget and trying to replace Cammalleri scoring with a local guy all made sense if your plan was to draft top five and keep culture magnets out of the dressing room.

I don't think he saw Monahan and Gaudreau at $13M on the horizon.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bingo

That and I honestly believe the Flames' brass thought the team would suck for two to three years and wanted to get to the cap floor with character guys and avoid chasing terrible UFA signings.

adding a guy like Engelland at an inflated price, doubling your goalie budget and trying to replace Cammalleri scoring with a local guy all made sense if your plan was to draft top five and keep culture magnets out of the dressing room.

I don't think he saw Monahan and Gaudreau at $13M on the horizon.

Or Gio becoming a Norris candidate at over $6M, Hamiltion at over $5M, Brodie a top 2 d-man at over $4M.

Even then all the bad contracts are off the books after this season for the most part and the cap troubles for this year are all based on players developing faster than expected.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Vancouver gave Raymond a get out of town free card.

The rest of the league followed and he earned a 1 year near the league min deal on a try out contract with the Leafs.


So basically the rest of the GMs saw Raymond for what he was.

You don't know what other offers Raymond had on the table.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Rome wasn't built in a day. $27M worth of dead weight expires over the next two years, 32M over 3 if you include Stajan and Bouma. Cap constraints are minor, IMO.

Treliving knows what he's doing, he'll figure it out.

That 16M of that 27M is already earmarked for players on this team... Gio- Monahan and Gaudreau. Make it 21M for Bennett's contract.

It will cost a big portion of the remainder to get a NHL level goalie or 2.

Right back to the cap.


Hopefully they don't find enough cap space to win a UFA bidding war this year.

You almost always overpay what the UFA is worth and throw off your salary structure.... Having a 3rd line RW making the same as your #1 D-man.

[BigFlameDog]

Treliving is good at his job....we can nit pick at this deal or that deal but I am very happy he is driving this bus. There is no perfect formula...dealing with people not robots.

[KootenayFlamesFan]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

That 16M of that 27M is already earmarked for players on this team... Gio- Monahan and Gaudreau. Make it 21M for Bennett's contract.

It will cost a big portion of the remainder to get a NHL level goalie or 2.

Right back to the cap.


Hopefully they don't find enough cap space to win a UFA bidding war this year.

You almost always overpay what the UFA is worth and throw off your salary structure.... Having a 3rd line RW making the same as your #1 D-man.

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You say another 5 million for Bennett. He's making close to a million now, so you believe he's going to have a good enough season next year to warrant a 6 million per year deal? I guess that could happen but I doubt it.

And you say back to the cap after figuring out the goalie situation. Hiller is making 4.5, he's gone. Ramo is making 3.8 and he's probably gone too. If they sign Ortio to a smaller deal, how much above Hiller and Ramo's salaries are you thinking the Flames will spend? 7 million? 8 million? 9 million?

Just curious where your numbers are coming from. And it doesn't even take into consideration trades, buyouts, etc.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by BigFlameDog

Treliving is good at his job....we can nit pick at this deal or that deal but I am very happy he is driving this bus. There is no perfect formula...dealing with people not robots.

How long does he have to put a playoff team on the ice?

I am hearing (and agreeing) that Bennett, Monahan, Gaudreau , Gio and Brodie are far exceeding expectations since BT took over.

What is going to push the Flames into a team that easily makes the playoffs?

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by KootenayFlamesFan

Correct me if I'm wrong.

You say another 5 million for Bennett. He's making close to a million now, so you believe he's going to have a good enough season next year to warrant a 6 million per year deal? I guess that could happen but I doubt it.

And you say back to the cap after figuring out the goalie situation. Hiller is making 4.5, he's gone. Ramo is making 3.8 and he's probably gone too. If they sign Ortio to a smaller deal, how much above Hiller and Ramo's salaries are you thinking the Flames will spend? 7 million? 8 million? 9 million?

Just curious where your numbers are coming from. And it doesn't even take into consideration trades, buyouts, etc.

I was lazy for this post I took

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

Rome wasn't built in a day. $27M worth of dead weight expires over the next two years, 32M over 3 if you include Stajan and Bouma. Cap constraints are minor, IMO.

Treliving knows what he's doing, he'll figure it out.

as being accurate.

I am assuming that the 27M included Hiller and Ramo.

say Bennett only puts up 20 goals next year.

Will he be less of an asset than Hamilton was after last summer, where the Bruins had to treat the RFA offer sheet as a real possibility?


Feel free to work the numbers. I have been doing it for a year and knew that Hudler and/or Russell could not re-sign with the Flames at 4M each. The cap said they had to be traded.

[PeteMoss]

Well I guess I have to agree with Ricardo but yes - have to pump the brakes on the Treliving praise. These rebuilding type moves are always the easiest to make. But you have to put a winning team on the ice and until he does that consistently I'm going to call him a wizard or great at his job.

The Flames cap room usage has been less than optimal since he's been here.

[devo22]

Under contract next season:

Forwards:
4.3 Frolik
3.6 Backlund
3.1 Stajan
2.2 Bouma
2.2 Raymond (buried)
1.3 Bollig
0.9 Bennett
0.8 Ferland

Defensemen:
6.7 Giordano
5.8 Hamilton
5.2 Wideman
4.7 Brodie
3.5 Smid
2.9 Engelland
0.9 Jokipakka

that's 48.1m if we assume that Smid is healthy (doubtful) and nobody is traded or bought out (very doubtful). That gives Treliving ~26m to re-sign Monahan, Gaudreau, Colborne, Nakladal and Ortio. If we assume that Treliving re-signs that group to a combined 18-19m, that gives him ~8m for a decent goalie and maybe a depth UFA or two. And again, that's without trades and buyouts as well as Smid on IR. A year later, Wideman, Engelland, Raymond and Smid finally come off the books, which frees over 13m. The Flames are fine in terms of salary cap.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Well I guess I have to agree with Ricardo but yes - have to pump the brakes on the Treliving praise. These rebuilding type moves are always the easiest to make. But you have to put a winning team on the ice and until he does that consistently I'm going to call him a wizard or great at his job.

The Flames cap room usage has been less than optimal since he's been here.

Are rebuilding moves the easiest to make? The fact Treliving got more for Russell than Feaster got for Iginla OR Bouwmeester shows that you can quite easily botch rebuilding moves. The Oilers botch rebuilding moves on the regular. You have provided no evidence that he shouldn't get full credit for rebuilding moves.

Why would we have to wait until the team is winning to evaluate his moves?
1st and two 2nds for D. Hamilton? Amazing
Signing Frolik? Great depth move
A depth centre who couldn't establish a role for himself for a goal scoring winger prospect? Solid
Kris Russell for Jokipakka, Pollack and a 2nd/1st? Has the potential to be one of the best trades in the last decade of Flames moves IMO.
Signing Nakladal for free out of Europe? Great move.

Treliving has been making great moves. The organization is in the best situation in terms of young assets in my entire time of watching the team in the last 20 years.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The Flames cap room usage has been less than optimal since he's been here.

Was there other realistic players that you would've liked to see the Flames bring in?

Or would it be better to not use the cap space at all? I'm thinking Treliving would be just as critized for not utilizing all of a max cap team's resources had he went with a 60m payroll or whatever. Pretty much lose-lose scenario unless the Flames make the playoffs.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by devo22

Under contract next season:

Forwards:
4.3 Frolik
3.6 Backlund
3.1 Stajan
2.2 Bouma
2.2 Raymond (buried)
1.3 Bollig
0.9 Bennett
0.8 Ferland

Defensemen:
6.7 Giordano
5.8 Hamilton
5.2 Wideman
4.7 Brodie
3.5 Smid
2.9 Engelland
0.9 Jokipakka

that's 48.1m if we assume that Smid is healthy (doubtful) and nobody is traded or bought out (very doubtful). That gives Treliving ~26m to re-sign Monahan, Gaudreau, Colborne, Nakladal and Ortio. If we assume that Treliving re-signs that group to a combined 18-19m, that gives him ~8m for a decent goalie and maybe a depth UFA or two. And again, that's without trades and buyouts as well as Smid on IR. A year later, Wideman, Engelland, Raymond and Smid finally come off the books, which frees over 13m. The Flames are fine in terms of salary cap.

Thanks. Totally reasonable however that is the same team that we have here this year. Will this team make the playoffs? Have to be pretty awesome goalie they sign.

AND you seem to be in agreement of signing overlooked UFAs for 1M/year rather than adding a depth forward (Frolik) at 4M

[devo22]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Thanks. Totally reasonable however that is the same team that we have here this year. Will this team make the playoffs? Have to be pretty awesome goalie they sign.

AND you seem to be in agreement of signing overlooked UFAs for 1M/year rather than adding a depth forward (Frolik) at 4M

like I said, that's without trades or other roster moves. Highly doubt we won't see any turnover.

and no, I'm not in agreement on Frolik. We all know you hate him for some reason, just like you seem to hate Hamilton and you obviously hated guys like Stempniak before. We get it. But seriously, Frolik has been a great addition at reasonable cost. Great PKer, can play up and down the lineup, extremely useful player. Came exactly as advertised and I'm really happy he's a Flame.

[PeteMoss]

Frolik is a push at best. He's fine but he's also pretty well paid.

You look at comparable contracts and you've got guys like Zucarello, Hornquivst, Craig Smith (of course there are terrible contracts at that range too) who are much better bang for their buck than Frolik.

[dino7c]

Flames needed players just to ice a team a couple summers ago...everyone expected a 30th place squad so they had to overpay to get guys here. Without Engelland the Flames miss the playoffs last season...Raymond is the only one that turned out really bad.