Are the Flames a "soft" team?

[calgaryblood]

I'm pretty sure Gio belonged in the NHL before that game against Brown.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

But the old men yelling at the clouds are telling me different. All I can hear is "back in my days...rabble rabble instigator rabble instigator ruined hockey rabble rabble"

Like Bollig or Mcgrattan last year did a single thing to prevent Gaudreau from getting slashed. Pro fighting crowds don't use reality just their imagination.

Old men yelling at clouds? Quite original. Though that's not at all what was said.

The fear of taking a penalty in response to star players getting whacked repeatedly, is what has indeed allowed the game to come to this. It was predicted by many in 5 his very forum going back over a decade.

Sure the game has changed somewhat but at its core, it's very much the same. Skate, pass, shoot, battle fir pucks, hit and score.

The stick work prevents all that stuff from happening at points. Stopping the other team from taking those liberties against your best players makes your team better. This really is indisputable....unfortunately the avenues to do so have barriers that in turn actually cost your club.

The game simply is no where near as good because if it.

[calgaryblood]

Ok then how was Claude Lemieux able to have such a successful career?

The game is better than ever without the cheap shot artists of the 80's and early 90's. That's a question that can't be answered. If the instigator is the reason why so many players get slashed or the best players get run why in the 80's and 90's when there was no instigator did the league see the biggest cheap shot artists and rats of all time? Couldn't someone just grab Lemiuex and pound his face in and he'd never do it again?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

What makes Toews and Seabrook tougher than Gio?

Willingness to mix it up. Roughing penalties. Dishing out whacks and hits. Take your pick.

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Hamilton has 5 inches and 20 lb's on Keith. He's also using his size this year so I consider him pretty tough.

Hamilton is a pure finesse player. He rarely engages physically or makes forward pay the price in the corners or driving the net. Maybe that will change. I hope so.

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Why is Monahan at the bottom of the list? You have him below Gaudreau...

Yes, I do. I honestly think Gaudreau has more jam and chippiness to his game than Monahan. I think Monahan will be in the conversation for the Lady Byng at some point in his career. The guy gets top minutes and is averaging about 12 PIM a season. I like Monahan, but he makes Joe Niewendyk look like Corey Perry.

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Hossa isn't a top-6 player which further shows that you don't have a clue what your talking about. But I guess putting a 5'10 170lb Panarin on the list doesn't fit your narrative...

Okay, let's include four forward per team. Drop Hossa from the list and add Panarin and Ladd, and add Frolik for the Flames. Does that look better?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Willingness to mix it up. Roughing penalties. Dishing out whacks and hits. Take your pick.

Gio does all of that regularly as well. He can also destroy big players with open ice hits.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Hamilton is a pure finesse player. He rarely engages physically or makes forward pay the price in the corners or driving the net. Maybe that will change. I hope so.

He might not be very physical, but that doesn't mean he's not using his size to tie up players along boards, push them off the puck etc.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Yes, I do. I honestly think Gaudreau has more jam and chippiness to his game than Monahan. I think Monahan will be in the conversation for the Lady Byng at some point in his career. The guy gets top minutes and is averaging about 12 PIM a season. I like Monahan, but he makes Joe Niewendyk look like Corey Perry.

I think we just have a different definition of soft. Your top players don't have to all be crash and bang type players like Bennett.

Monahan doesn't shy away from contact and that cannot be disputed. Soft players don't score 75% of their goals from within 3 feet of the net. Monahan is 6'3 215+ lb's and very strong on his stick. He's able to set up shop and nobody can clear him from his money spot. Solid fore-checking as well and agreed he's a very disciplined player.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Okay, let's include four forward per team. Drop Hossa from the list and add Panarin and Ladd, and add Frolik for the Flames. Does that look better?

Glad someone informed you that Ladd is once again a member of the Hawks.

If we're going 4 forwards we are adding Bennett. Need I say more? Not that Frolik is soft by any means. He was also a key member of the Hawks first Stanley cup after all.

[thefoss1957]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Not that Frolik is soft by any means. He was also a key member of the Hawks first Stanley cup after all.

He came from Florida with a reputation as a scorer...but...he never really found that part of his game in Chicago...what he DID do, though, was work hard on the Defensive side of his game, and fit right into a checking/PK/utility role. Never complained about his lot...gotta love his work ethic and willingness to do what it takes for the team. Kruger/Frolik was an amazing PK pair, that Q trotted out on all odd numbered PK shifts.

Now, is he a classic grinder? No. Is he a big hitter? No. But I had seen him jump into scrums, when needed. Frolik, like Kruger, has proven to be a high hockey IQ guy, who gives a consistent effort, and "glue" kind of guy for the framework of a team.

He is one of the 'Hawks cap casualties that I really regret having lost.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by thefoss1957

He came from Florida with a reputation as a scorer...but...he never really found that part of his game in Chicago...what he DID do, though, was work hard on the Defensive side of his game, and fit right into a checking/PK/utility role. Never complained about his lot...gotta love his work ethic and willingness to do what it takes for the team. Kruger/Frolik was an amazing PK pair, that Q trotted out on all odd numbered PK shifts.

Now, is he a classic grinder? No. Is he a big hitter? No. But I had seen him jump into scrums, when needed. Frolik, like Kruger, has proven to be a high hockey IQ guy, who gives a consistent effort, and "glue" kind of guy for the framework of a team.

He is one of the 'Hawks cap casualties that I really regret having lost.

Do you feel he was overpaid as a UFA? Obviously he would never have fit Chicago's cap structure but do you feel he is worth $4.3m x 5 on most teams as a 2nd/3rd line utility player? I feel like he is, but to me he is having a bit of a down year, relative to how he was advertised. There have been some rumblings on this board that he may become/is an albatross. I haven't watched him much before this year so I'm thinking his injury maybe set him back a little.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Do you feel he was overpaid as a UFA? Obviously he would never have fit Chicago's cap structure but do you feel he is worth $4.3m x 5 on most teams as a 2nd/3rd line utility player? I feel like he is, but to me he is having a bit of a down year, relative to how he was advertised. There have been some rumblings on this board that he may become/is an albatross. I haven't watched him much before this year so I'm thinking his injury maybe set him back a little.

Frolik is playing exactly as good as he was in his last 2 years with the Jets.

Last year his ice time was more in Winnipeg as the Jets dressed a 4-5 minute/game goon line and almost all their top-6 forwards were injured for some period of games.

[thefoss1957]

Fire...as a UFA? I probably wouldn't have bid more than $3.5M per, based on his POTENTIAL to regain his scoring touch that he demonstrated with the Panthers. He is still south of 30yo...and so is just entering prime years.

[Mean Mr. Mustard]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Its what happens when you essentially remove fighting from the game and keep the instigator as a penalty.

Stick work on star players will occur with far more frequency because there is little chance of retribution, and if there is someone willing to do something about it, they will just leave their team short handed.

Its the pussification of the game as it has been heading for the last decade now...maybe even longer.

There has always been stick work and cheap shots. It is revisionist history to think that there wasn't. If anything else this has been the cleanest that the game has ever been. The good ol' days with fighting featured some of the most brutal cheap shots you could ever witness. Watch highlights from the 70s and 80s, the number of slashes, hacks and hooks is unbelievable - hell just look at the number of players who got into sword fights with their sticks in an attempt to bludgeon and club their opponents!

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Do you feel he was overpaid as a UFA? Obviously he would never have fit Chicago's cap structure but do you feel he is worth $4.3m x 5 on most teams as a 2nd/3rd line utility player? I feel like he is, but to me he is having a bit of a down year, relative to how he was advertised. There have been some rumblings on this board that he may become/is an albatross. I haven't watched him much before this year so I'm thinking his injury maybe set him back a little.

I can tell you that at the time of the signing there were many Jet fans livid that Cheveldayoff wasn't able to re-sign Frolik. Consensus was he was worth the 4.3 mil but management was too cheap to give him the contract.

He's not the most physical player, but he does battle and is hands down our best PKer. The injury definitely hurt his year, but he's still managed 2 hat tricks even with his inconsistent offense this season.

If he had a better shot he'd be a legit 2nd liner instead of elite 3rd liner.

[saillias]

No not anymore.

Out this year: Byron, Raymond, Hudler, Granlund, Russell, Wideman (kinda) Jones. There's a lot of softness there.

I think the change in overall style to a more physical, hard-nosed game happened right around the time of the Wideman suspension, when Russell also was hurt and then Hudler traded. This is about the time they added Hathaway, Nakladal and Wotherspoon.

There are physical forwards all throughout the lineup now and the depth d-man are much better crease-clearers than Wideman or Russell were.

[vicarious]

Originally Posted by saillias

No not anymore.

Out this year: Byron, Raymond, Hudler, Granlund, Russell, Wideman (kinda) Jones. There's a lot of softness there.

I think the change in overall style to a more physical, hard-nosed game happened right around the time of the Wideman suspension, when Russell also was hurt and then Hudler traded. This is about the time they added Hathaway, Nakladal and Wotherspoon.

There are physical forwards all throughout the lineup now and the depth d-man are much better crease-clearers than Wideman or Russell were.

This

Although Russell isn't soft, just small. There's definitely been a trend toward moving out smaller players.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by saillias

No not anymore.

Out this year: Byron, Raymond, Hudler, Granlund, Russell, Wideman (kinda) Jones. There's a lot of softness there.

I think the change in overall style to a more physical, hard-nosed game happened right around the time of the Wideman suspension, when Russell also was hurt and then Hudler traded. This is about the time they added Hathaway, Nakladal and Wotherspoon.

There are physical forwards all throughout the lineup now and the depth d-man are much better crease-clearers than Wideman or Russell were.

I find it strange and almost insulting to Byron that you include him in that group. Byron was a lot of things, but soft wasn't one of them. He never played soft. He wasn't and isn't afraid to throw checks on much bigger guys or get into puck battles. You don't play 200 NHL games by the age of 26 at his size without having a certain level of grit and toughness. To lump him in with Raymond is bizarre. Raymond is in the AHL right now, Byron isn't. I wonder if he'll ever get the praise he deserves from some part of this board?

Oh and why don't you ask Daniel Sedin if he thinks Byron is soft?

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

I find it strange and almost insulting to Byron that you include him in that group. Byron was a lot of things, but soft wasn't one of them. He never played soft. He wasn't and isn't afraid to throw checks on much bigger guys or get into puck battles. You don't play 200 NHL games by the age of 26 at his size without having a certain level of grit and toughness. To lump him in with Raymond is bizarre. Raymond is in the AHL right now, Byron isn't. I wonder if he'll ever get the praise he deserves from some part of this board?

He isn't soft, but he isn't hard to play against just because of his size.