CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by stone hands

The owners are five billionaires(with a b)

It really saddens me when I hear people say that the owners are putting up $200 million of their own money for a billion dollar project like its some kind of altruistic gesture.

This is their facility. I get that people love the flames but no thanks

Pretty much. I'd rather see the team move than go through with CalgaryNEXT as it's been proposed.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by Schultzie

Pretty much. I'd rather see the team move than go through with CalgaryNEXT as it's been proposed.

What an absolutely ridiculous thing to say

[stone hands]

Is it?

[TheScorpion]

Yeah, it's pretty ridiculous to say that you'd rather see a team move to Quebec or Seattle or wherever instead of having a new arena built. It'd be very stupid - and fundamentally wrong - if Bettman forced us to build the arena or relocate, but if we had to save the Flames from the horrifying prospects of our owners losing a billion dollars, I'd pledge some cash towards helping.

[powderjunkie]

I don't think it's a ridiculous thing to say at all. 90% of Calgarians (who were fairly aware of CNext) would probably say it. The fact that it seems to be 50/50ish here of all places is telling.

[Lanny_McDonald]

I would love to see the collective crapping of pants around here if Burke started making exploratory meetings with other cities about possible relocation. A lot of awful tough talk from people who were probably too young to understand the dread that this city felt about the possible loss of the hockey team back in the 90s. I would hate to see the city go through that again, but some of the fans obviously need to experience that wake up call. The Flames leave and you may never see another NHL hockey game in Alberta without going to Edmonton. That would be extremely tough to stomach.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by New Era

I would love to see the collective crapping of pants around here if Burke started making exploratory meetings with other cities about possible relocation. A lot of awful tough talk from people who were probably too young to understand the dread that this city felt about the possible loss of the hockey team back in the 90s. I would hate to see the city go through that again, but some of the fans obviously need to experience that wake up call. The Flames leave and you may never see another NHL hockey game in Alberta without going to Edmonton. That would be extremely tough to stomach.

Tons of talk from people who don't even live in Calgary. It's borderline spiteful.

[corporatejay]

Originally Posted by New Era

I would love to see the collective crapping of pants around here if Burke started making exploratory meetings with other cities about possible relocation. A lot of awful tough talk from people who were probably too young to understand the dread that this city felt about the possible loss of the hockey team back in the 90s. I would hate to see the city go through that again, but some of the fans obviously need to experience that wake up call. The Flames leave and you may never see another NHL hockey game in Alberta without going to Edmonton. That would be extremely tough to stomach.

Not tougher than forking out a bunch of taxpayer cash for a piece of junk facility.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by New Era

I would love to see the collective crapping of pants around here if Burke started making exploratory meetings with other cities about possible relocation. A lot of awful tough talk from people who were probably too young to understand the dread that this city felt about the possible loss of the hockey team back in the 90s. I would hate to see the city go through that again, but some of the fans obviously need to experience that wake up call. The Flames leave and you may never see another NHL hockey game in Alberta without going to Edmonton. That would be extremely tough to stomach.

yay, we're back to the fear mongering. If all else fails...

[Schultzie]

Originally Posted by New Era

I would love to see the collective crapping of pants around here if Burke started making exploratory meetings with other cities about possible relocation. A lot of awful tough talk from people who were probably too young to understand the dread that this city felt about the possible loss of the hockey team back in the 90s. I would hate to see the city go through that again, but some of the fans obviously need to experience that wake up call. The Flames leave and you may never see another NHL hockey game in Alberta without going to Edmonton. That would be extremely tough to stomach.

As a young fan at the time, getting 2-for-1 ticket vouchers on the side of 12 packs of Coke to watch the Flames lose in a half-empty Saddledome was the highlight of my month. When the ultimatum was made, I thought selling 14,000 season tickets was impossible, and do remember how worried (and convinced) many people were that the team was as good as gone. I was completely distraught.

Now, as a (somewhat) more mature and (somewhat) more thoughtful, level-headed adult, I realize NHL hockey is not as important as I once held it to be. Sure, going to games is fun, but if keeping the Flames in Calgary means using an astronomical amount of public funds to subsidize a few billionaires so they can build their cluster**** of an arena that only a small percentage of Calgarians will be able to afford to use, I'd quite happily give that privilege up.

That's not going to be a popular opinion on a website called "CalgaryPuck," but I don't think it's a ridiculous thing to say at all.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Tons of talk from people who don't even live in Calgary. It's borderline spiteful.

Possibly, but still true. Sometimes people need to experience something first hand to truly understand it. Talk to St. Louis football fans right now. Talk to St. Louis city officials. See how they feel about losing their team? Then talk with San Diego and Oakland people and check out their feelings. It ain't fun to lose your team.

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Not tougher than forking out a bunch of taxpayer cash for a piece of junk facility.

Junk facility? Ah, you're one of the shiny disco ball set. You need the pretty renderings and the pictures of the shiny happy people super imposed over a an animation to judge the quality of something? Isn't the concept the important thing here, since we are still at the conceptualization stage? What has been presented addresses the needs of the city and does so with a responsible approach to handling costs. The funding model needs to addressed, but this is a good start. What could they have done to make this a better design for you?

Originally Posted by monkeyman

yay, we're back to the fear mongering. If all else fails...

You may consider it fear mongering but it is the reality of pro sports. When facilities become old and cannot sustain the operations of the team management has to push for ways to get more money. Ownership has to do the same, and that usually means new facilities with better options to draw in customers and events. If those facilities aren't there then the next natural avenue is to find a market that can sustain the team, or just bail out all together. I'm not saying we're at that point, but it could happen. I didn't think Murray Edwards would abandon Calgary, but that happened. Maybe if he begins to divest himself of his Calgary based holdings we'll see the interest in the marketplace for shares in the Flames. That could be very telling.

[Yoho]

Another group of potential owners would come knocking the day the Flames left.
Too much money, corporate business, and appetite for hockey in this stable market.

To a greater extent it's why the Leafs and Montreal didn't play the staring contest with the city over their new rinks when built.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Yoho

Another group of potential owners would come knocking the day the Flames left.
Too much money, corporate business, and appetite for hockey in this stable market.

To a greater extent it's why the Leafs and Montreal didn't play the staring contest with the city over their new rinks when built.

If Edwards puts his shares up for sale we'll find out how much interest there is in Calgary. I think a lot of people will be surprised. I don't think there would be as much interest as some would hope. Investors are going to have watched this whole arena debate from afar. Would you buy a team that needed a new building? Look at the lack of interest in the Islanders for an example. I hope it doesn't come to that.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by New Era

If Edwards puts his shares up for sale we'll find out how much interest there is in Calgary. I think a lot of people will be surprised. I don't think there would be as much interest as some would hope. Investors are going to have watched this whole arena debate from afar. Would you buy a team that needed wanted a new building? Look at the lack of interest in the Islanders for an example. I hope it doesn't come to that.

FYP. And it's incredibly disingenuous to suggest the Flames need a new arena, as if the franchise is destined to totally fall apart if they don't get one. They want a new arena to make more money, have more luxury boxes, and have fewer seats that they can charge more money for.

It's not even remotely a need, they're not underwater playing at the Dome. If they were struggling to pay salaries, and need more revenue, then it's a need. This city as a whole has about, I don't know, at least 50 greater needs filled for its citizens besides a private building that public has to pay high prices to use. Shocking that this disastrous pitch they've made so far has actually turned people for public money towards this, to now being against it. Isn't that a pretty damning indictment as to why they should get nothing? They're suppose to be making us want it, instead they're doing the opposite.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Well said from the con perspective Senator. But what happens if the team isn't crying wolf. By time they are in a position that they can't afford players isn't it already too late? I'm sure the Flames and the league know the situation better than anyone. Maybe the NHLPA has to step up and say the Flames need a new arena? Would that change things? Would that make the fans listen?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Well one thing the Flames will benefit from for at least 10 more years is Rogers badly overpaying for the TV deal. So more money in their pocket from that then they could have gotten otherwise. Plus when the Flames are next up for their local deal (I think 2020), Rogers and TSN could get into a bidding war there that earns the Flames more money there too.

The salary cap helps a lot as well, since it should keep the Flames competitive at the top and not having to chase the Rangers or Leafs or Wings who in the past had the advantage of no cap and lots of money to get more players they wanted. So it's not like when Winnipeg bolted where they legitimately could not compete They need to give up on the fieldhouse as the Stamps new home, focus on the arena and getting strong support infrastructure from the city/province, and pay for the arena pretty much totally privately. I bet it's a much easier pitch to get money for support infrastructure than to pay for the building itself.

[saillias]

N/m - tapatalk made a post for me while I was just reading the thread

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Well one thing the Flames will benefit from for at least 10 more years is Rogers badly overpaying for the TV deal. So more money in their pocket from that then they could have gotten otherwise. Plus when the Flames are next up for their local deal (I think 2020), Rogers and TSN could get into a bidding war there that earns the Flames more money there too.

The salary cap helps a lot as well, since it should keep the Flames competitive at the top and not having to chase the Rangers or Leafs or Wings who in the past had the advantage of no cap and lots of money to get more players they wanted. So it's not like when Winnipeg bolted where they legitimately could not compete They need to give up on the fieldhouse as the Stamps new home, focus on the arena and getting strong support infrastructure from the city/province, and pay for the arena pretty much totally privately. I bet it's a much easier pitch to get money for support infrastructure than to pay for the building itself.

Which they pretty much did: $200M from owners + $200M ticket tax.

The need for civic funding is really about a stadium

As for the cap and the strength of the league, yes those are definitely good things. And they make the risks on a ticket tax even more minimal.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by New Era

Well said from the con perspective Senator. But what happens if the team isn't crying wolf. By time they are in a position that they can't afford players isn't it already too late? I'm sure the Flames and the league know the situation better than anyone. Maybe the NHLPA has to step up and say the Flames need a new arena? Would that change things? Would that make the fans listen?

I'm starting to think that the biggest red flag about CNext is that New Era is it's strongest supporter.

NHLPA is still a business partner and special interest group in this situation (of course they'd want a new building for any team - increased revenue and better amenities and their members workplace).

IF the PA and NHL are adamant about a new arena, then they should be stepping up to the plate too (for any city). This is a bigger conversation, but it would be prudent planning for them to build a fund that each team can draw from every 60 years (would never be huge money, but it would be good for optics and offer team another little slice of money coming from their side of the ledger).


Personally, I think the threat of relocation is minute. But, if you accept it is a possibility, then I would say it is the strongest possible argument against building a public building with public money. The last time the Flames were threatening to relocate had nearly nothing to do with the arena. What if the economy stays down for the next decade and the Flames stay in the basement? No team and massive debt for a now largely unused facility.

My terms for the city partnering with anything resembling CNext are a 25% stake in future sale of the team, and an airtight $250M buyout clause (@3% interest /year) in the event of relocation (buying out that 25% stake).

Lastly (Forbe's value rankings):

Jets (20)
Hurricanes (28)
Avalanche (19)
Coyotes (27)
Stars (15)

Relocation is no guarantee of greener grass. Denver was probably a home run, but winning a cup in year 1 didn't hurt, and lately the shine is starting to wear off. Jets - anything was an improvement from Atlanta, but it will be interesting to see how things look there in a few years. Stars - seem okay now, but not without their ups and downs. The Wild's franchise value is almost even with them now. Hurricanes and Coyotes? Enough said. One of them even won a cup in the last decade.

If the Flames want to cement their status on the bottom half of the Forbe's list, then have at it!

[Bunk]

I believe a new arena is entirely within reach and could even get some public monies. Just likely not under the current proposal because I believe it fundamentally does not make sense (for reasons I've stated several times). I also believe KK's hinting at a "Plan B" is exactly what will happen, and I think that Plan B will end up looking something a lot like what I suggested at the onset of this thread, including renovated McMahon and originally planned Foothills Athletic Park Fieldhouse. I'd be almost willing to bet money on it. That's not based on any inside knowledge (don't have that anymore), it's just based on what I'm really sure makes sense for the Flames, and the City, and Calgary.