THN Futurewatch Flames ranking

[polak]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Mangiapane named OHL player of the week
http://new.ontariohockeyleague.com/a...er-of-the-week

11 points in 3 games, kid has been on fire lately.

You'd think he should at least be a couple spots higher in the prospect rankings. Can't wait to see him in the AHL leading the NHL in rookie scoring next season

fyp

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by polak

fyp

New Era would explode in a fit of pessimism if I said he'd make the NHL next season.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

New Era would explode in a fit of pessimism if I said he'd make the NHL next season.

Where was I being pessimistic? I was pretty realistic in my expectations, maybe even on the optimistic side, considering the player's size, draft position, when he was drafted, and when Mangiapane doesn't even have a contract with the Flames at the current time. I'm already assuming they give him a contract and don't send him back to junior for another year as an over-age.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by New Era

Where was I being pessimistic? I was pretty realistic in my expectations, maybe even on the optimistic side, considering the player's size, draft position, when he was drafted, and when Mangiapane doesn't even have a contract with the Flames at the current time. I'm already assuming they give him a contract and don't send him back to junior for another year as an over-age.

Because you shouldn't be evaluating players on hype. You should be evaluating players on their ability to make it to the NHL and contribute at the NHL level. Mangiapane will have to show he has the skill and toughness at the pro-level to garner any hype. Intriguing player, but has a lot of issues to work through to get to the NHL. Let's see how he does at prospects camp in July before getting excited over him.

Yeah you are very optimistic... Saying we shouldn't get excited about a prospect who is almost a goal per game and 2 PPG. Oh and currently the CHL player of the week.

[Fire]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Yeah you are very optimistic... Saying we shouldn't get excited about a prospect who is almost a goal per game and 2 PPG. Oh and currently the CHL player of the week.

I think New Era is just trying to be realistic here. The chances that Mangiapane will become an impact player in the NHL is quite low. The chances of him playing more than 5 games in the NHL next season is probably near 1%. Playing at least one season in the AHL makes way too much sense for Mangiapane.

Gaudreau came directly to the NHL, 3 years after he was drafted. Mangiapane was only drafted last year. Plus Mangiapane is not a special player like Gaudreau.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Fire

I think New Era is just trying to be realistic here. The chances that Mangiapane will become an impact player in the NHL is quite low. The chances of him playing more than 5 games in the NHL next season is probably near 1%. Playing at least one season in the AHL makes way too much sense for Mangiapane.

Gaudreau came directly to the NHL, 3 years after he was drafted. Mangiapane was only drafted last year. Plus Mangiapane is not a special player like Gaudreau.

Who is saying otherwise? I said that I was excited to see him in the AHL next season...

There is a difference between being excited about a prospect and penciling him into the NHL next season.

I have no objection to tempered optimism. Please feel free to quote anything I said that implies I do. What New Era wrote was not tempered optimism.. There isn't a hint of optimism in any sentence he's written.

And I also have never compared Gaudreau and Mangiapane, so I'm not sure where that is coming from.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Originally Posted by Fire

I think New Era is just trying to be realistic here. The chances that Mangiapane will become an impact player in the NHL is quite low. The chances of him playing more than 5 games in the NHL next season is probably near 1%. Playing at least one season in the AHL makes way too much sense for Mangiapane.

Gaudreau came directly to the NHL, 3 years after he was drafted. Mangiapane was only drafted last year. Plus Mangiapane is not a special player like Gaudreau.

Gaudreau is definitely the exception to the rule. AHL is a necessary step for most players. (and I expected Gaudreau to go down, for at least half a season).
Still happy with the Mangiapane pick. Can't argue his success in the OHL.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Mangiapane wins Coaches poll for fastest skater, best shootout scorer and most underrated player of the OHL Eastern Conference. Not just the most underrated prospect on this board it seems.

Ryan Yessie ‏@RyanHPscout
The fact Andrew Mangiapane was voted most underrated player in the OHL with 50 goals and 100+ points says a lot about type of player he is..

Are we allowed to get excited about him yet New Era? Or do we still have to wait until his next development camp?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Mangiapane wins Coaches poll for fastest skater, best shootout scorer and most underrated player of the OHL Eastern Conference. Not just the most underrated prospect on this board it seems.

Ryan Yessie ‏@RyanHPscout
The fact Andrew Mangiapane was voted most underrated player in the OHL with 50 goals and 100+ points says a lot about type of player he is..

Are we allowed to get excited about him yet New Era? Or do we still have to wait until his next development camp?

You can do whatever you like. I don't care if you look foolish doing it. Here's a little list of those polls that might curb your enthusiasm.

Most Under-rated Players (each conference)
2014-15 - Marcus McIvor, Pius Suter
2013-14 - Brendan Bell, Brady Vail
2012-13 - Colin Miller, Justin Auger
2011-12 - Sam Carrick, Garret Ross
2010-11 - Tyler Carroll, Andy Andreoff
2009-10 - Ken Peroff, AJ Jenks
2008-09 - Jesse Messier, Mickey Renaud (another Flames late draft pick)
2008-09 - Jesse Messier, Jan Mursak
2007-08 - Trevor Kell, Jordan Owens

That's a big pile of meh. Is there anything to get excited about in that list? Not in the slightest. A grand total of about 60 NHL games amongst all those players. None of these awards change the fact that he is still a small player that took 13 rounds to be selected. His scoring exploits are nothing new either. This is like when Brendan Shinnimin ripped up the WHL for a 134 points. Was anyone overly excited about his scoring exploits? Nope. Junior hockey is junior hockey and pro hockey is pro hockey, which is why he played 12 NHL games and is struggling to find a full time AHL gig. The hill Mangiapane has to fight is clearly in one direction: UP.

Yeah, I still say wait until camp to see how he looks before getting excited, but I would also say getting a contract out of the Flames might be a logical step to dealing with your impending excitement. If he gets a contract then I might begin to see a possible window for him.

[dammage79]

So Bryan Cameron 2.0 then?
I can see that.

I still think it is legitimate to get excited for the prospect though. IIRC, he is still dong this a year, 2 years younger than Cameron. Which is a much more promising sign.

I can wait though to see what he can do in the AHL. Still, no matter which way you cut it, not bad for a 6th round pick!

[Lanny_McDonald]

Bryan Cameron is a great comparison. Even played for the same team in junior. And even after a pretty impressive OHL career, where he was voted the winner of many coaches polls, he managed one season in the AHL and has been stuck in the ECHL for four seasons with a season in the CHL. I think Mangiapane has a better outlook than that, but I want to see him step up to the pro ranks before thinking he is anything more than Cameron at this point.

[MarkGio]

Bryan Cameron didn't put up 50 goals until his 5th year in the OHL, and not once did he put up 100 Pts. Mangiapane has done it in his 3rd year of the OHL and put up 40g 100pts in his 2nd year.

Likewise Brandon Shinnimin didn't put up 50g/100pts until his 5th year in the OHL. He finished the season as a 21 year old. Mangiapane will finish the season as a 19 going on 20 year old.

[MarkGio]

Interestingly, looking at the Bryan Cameron 50g roster, he was playing with the following:

-- TJ Brodie
-- Alex Petrangelo
-- Alex Burmistrov
-- Ryan Strome
-- Kyle Clifford
-- Zac Rinaldo

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Wasn't one of the criticisms of Cameron his foot speed? From what I've read, Mangiapane is quite fast, so I don't know that you can compare them. Also, Mangiapane has put up 1.5ppg and 1.8ppg in his last two years, Cameron never really came close to that kind of production.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Wasn't one of the criticisms of Cameron his foot speed? From what I've read, Mangiapane is quite fast, so I don't know that you can compare them. Also, Mangiapane has put up 1.5ppg and 1.8ppg in his last two years, Cameron never really came close to that kind of production.

Yeah he is quite fast.

Mangiapane wins Coaches poll for fastest skater

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by New Era

You can do whatever you like. I don't care if you look foolish doing it. Here's a little list of those polls that might curb your enthusiasm.

Most Under-rated Players (each conference)
2014-15 - Marcus McIvor, Pius Suter
2013-14 - Brendan Bell, Brady Vail
2012-13 - Colin Miller, Justin Auger
2011-12 - Sam Carrick, Garret Ross
2010-11 - Tyler Carroll, Andy Andreoff
2009-10 - Ken Peroff, AJ Jenks
2008-09 - Jesse Messier, Mickey Renaud (another Flames late draft pick)
2008-09 - Jesse Messier, Jan Mursak
2007-08 - Trevor Kell, Jordan Owens

That's a big pile of meh. Is there anything to get excited about in that list? Not in the slightest. A grand total of about 60 NHL games amongst all those players. None of these awards change the fact that he is still a small player that took 13 rounds to be selected. His scoring exploits are nothing new either. This is like when Brendan Shinnimin ripped up the WHL for a 134 points. Was anyone overly excited about his scoring exploits? Nope. Junior hockey is junior hockey and pro hockey is pro hockey, which is why he played 12 NHL games and is struggling to find a full time AHL gig. The hill Mangiapane has to fight is clearly in one direction: UP.

Yeah, I still say wait until camp to see how he looks before getting excited, but I would also say getting a contract out of the Flames might be a logical step to dealing with your impending excitement. If he gets a contract then I might begin to see a possible window for him.

Did any of those listed players put up similar numbers and still manage to be voted underrated?

[Sandman]

Normally, i would look down my nose at a small player who was passed over in his draft year too, but there's a few things that give me the feeling that he might be special. I think his feistiness is a good sign, along with his skating, and the fact he's 2nd in the OHL in goal-scoring. I know that junior players are junior players, but he seems to have the right tools and attitude to possibly make it.

[MarkGio]

I will say this, after seeing how much this kid has progressed, I would be much happier to have drafted Mangiapane in the 3rd round after putting up 61 pts in 48gp in 2013 over Keenan "Goon" Kanzig. I still can't believe we spent a 3rd on that guy. It was only because Feaster wanted to get bigger

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Bryan Cameron didn't put up 50 goals until his 5th year in the OHL, and not once did he put up 100 Pts. Mangiapane has done it in his 3rd year of the OHL and put up 40g 100pts in his 2nd year.

Likewise Brandon Shinnimin didn't put up 50g/100pts until his 5th year in the OHL. He finished the season as a 21 year old. Mangiapane will finish the season as a 19 going on 20 year old.

This is too easy. You want an even better comparison? How about just looking at the same roster. Kevin Lebanc. Four months older than Mangiapane, also drafted in the 6th round, and has ripped the OHL up. Lebanc was voted 2nd Smartest Player, 1st in Best Playmaker, 2nd in Most Dangeous Around the Goal, and 1st in Best Penalty Killer. Do you think Sharks fans are walking around with prospect boners? Nope. they are very guarded in their hopes for this kid. A couple quotes from that other board will give you some insight into their approach.

"I don't get why so many of our fans have already given up on Lebanc as a failure at the NHL level. Maybe it is just previous prospects falling short of expectations but who knows."

"I don't think it's people giving up on him. More that it has to do with keeping the expectations low. What he's doing right now in the O is phenomenal and shouldn't be taken with slight. But he was drafted as low as he was for a reason and the logic is there for many reasons he may not become the NHLer many may be perceiving just looking at his junior play. He is undersized and it is argued he does things that will only work at the Junior level. It's not to say he won't amount to anything, but to say he'll be a sure-fire NHLer may be a bit premature."

That pretty well nails on the head my approach to Mangiapane as well. If he turns out, and finds his way onto the roster in some fashion, bonus! Thinking his scoring exploits will translate to the professional ranks is premature. He could become a Paul Byron type of player for us, or he could be headed to the Swiss League to become a superstar over there. We really won't know until he steps into a professional league and shows what he can do against men. Two things I really do like about him are his speed and tenacity, hence the Byron comparison. I see an avenue for him, but it is a congested thoroughfare. He'll also need a contract, which I will admit to be surprised the Flames have not yet extended to the kid. First things first. Sign a contract.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by New Era

This is too easy. You want an even better comparison? How about just looking at the same roster. Kevin Lebanc. Four months older than Mangiapane, also drafted in the 6th round, and has ripped the OHL up. Lebanc was voted 2nd Smartest Player, 1st in Best Playmaker, 2nd in Most Dangeous Around the Goal, and 1st in Best Penalty Killer. Do you think Sharks fans are walking around with prospect boners? Nope. they are very guarded in their hopes for this kid. A couple quotes from that other board will give you some insight into their approach.

"I don't get why so many of our fans have already given up on Lebanc as a failure at the NHL level. Maybe it is just previous prospects falling short of expectations but who knows."

"I don't think it's people giving up on him. More that it has to do with keeping the expectations low. What he's doing right now in the O is phenomenal and shouldn't be taken with slight. But he was drafted as low as he was for a reason and the logic is there for many reasons he may not become the NHLer many may be perceiving just looking at his junior play. He is undersized and it is argued he does things that will only work at the Junior level. It's not to say he won't amount to anything, but to say he'll be a sure-fire NHLer may be a bit premature."

That pretty well nails on the head my approach to Mangiapane as well. If he turns out, and finds his way onto the roster in some fashion, bonus! Thinking his scoring exploits will translate to the professional ranks is premature. He could become a Paul Byron type of player for us, or he could be headed to the Swiss League to become a superstar over there. We really won't know until he steps into a professional league and shows what he can do against men. Two things I really do like about him are his speed and tenacity, hence the Byron comparison. I see an avenue for him, but it is a congested thoroughfare. He'll also need a contract, which I will admit to be surprised the Flames have not yet extended to the kid. First things first. Sign a contract.

I can respect your opinion, reasons for caution and even your skepticism. I won't, however, pay attention to poorly cited ancedotes of fan opinion. You blatantly selected two posts that best fit your argument, ignoring what is or could be the general consensus among shark fans. I highly doubt that "Shark fans" are withholding their optimism, as you say they are. I went and looked at two threads at the Sharks HF page and saw posters saying things that suggest they have a "prospect boner". Did you honestly think that was a reasonable argument, just like you thought Cameron/Shiminim was a reasonable comparison?

Perhaps we should wait until HF Sharks does their end of season prospect rankings to see exacyl exactly how level-headed they will be about Leblanc -- who, by the way, is a fantastic performer for someone selected in the 6th round and shouldn't be discredited for his accomplishments just because he hasn't made the NHL yet. He's had an excellent career for his age and that in itself is a success.