McGrattan ko'ed in the AHL

[Da_Chief]

I think time is definitely coming where fighting and to an extent body checking will be gone from the game.

There's overwhelming evidence of physical play causing concussions in football and hockey especially.

The equipment, speed and size of todays players is all too much. Two cars colliding at 40 km/h will cause damage to both cars, imagine human brains rattling in there after a collision like that.

In my opinion, the game should be about skill. If you can't hit players then you don't need retribution. There shouldn't be dirty plays, it should be strictly called, dirty plays should be lengthy suspensions.

Football will be much harder. Potentially they can try tackle zone in thighs only (below the waste, above the knees). I would also get rid of modern day helmets in football, go back to old school helmets. Helmets are used as weapons by many NFL players.

The time is coming though. Especially with the NFL finally owning up to it.

Skill, give me more skill all across the board. I don't care about hitting/fighting.

[Tbull8]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

I think time is definitely coming where fighting and to an extent body checking will be gone from the game.

There's overwhelming evidence of physical play causing concussions in football and hockey especially.

The equipment, speed and size of todays players is all too much. Two cars colliding at 40 km/h will cause damage to both cars, imagine human brains rattling in there after a collision like that.

In my opinion, the game should be about skill. If you can't hit players then you don't need retribution. There shouldn't be dirty plays, it should be strictly called, dirty plays should be lengthy suspensions.

Football will be much harder. Potentially they can try tackle zone in thighs only (below the waste, above the knees). I would also get rid of modern day helmets in football, go back to old school helmets. Helmets are used as weapons by many NFL players.

The time is coming though. Especially with the NFL finally owning up to it.

Skill, give me more skill all across the board. I don't care about hitting/fighting.

I don't know how many people would find this level of recreational hockey entertaining. I know I would stop watching if they took out body checking.

[Da_Chief]

Originally Posted by Tbull8

I don't know how many people would find this level of recreational hockey entertaining. I know I would stop watching if they took out body checking.

There will be plenty. Fans are not just going to stop watching, they will get used to it. Like others have said, fighting is down significantly compared to years past yet we still have people tuning in and filling some rinks.

Rarely do we see a big hit, Ferland had a series of a lifetime last year but I can honestly only think of couple good hits he's laid out this season. Is finishing your check worth the future concussion for your co-workers?

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

There will be plenty. Fans are not just going to stop watching, they will get used to it. Like others have said, fighting is down significantly compared to years past yet we still have people tuning in and filling some rinks.

Rarely do we see a big hit, Ferland had a series of a lifetime last year but I can honestly only think of couple good hits he's laid out this season. Is finishing your check worth the future concussion for your co-workers?

I would stop watching. I can't speak for everyone obviously.

[Psytic]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

There will be plenty. Fans are not just going to stop watching, they will get used to it. Like others have said, fighting is down significantly compared to years past yet we still have people tuning in and filling some rinks.

Rarely do we see a big hit, Ferland had a series of a lifetime last year but I can honestly only think of couple good hits he's laid out this season. Is finishing your check worth the future concussion for your co-workers?

I would stop. I might as well go watch soccer at that point.

[Da_Chief]

I guess I'm wrong then. We'll see where things end up.

[combustiblefuel]

Count me in the group of people who would stop watching if it was not contact.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by MBates

I disagree and I do not think I am kidding myself. But I will suggest an alternate theory for why fighting is still in the game today and not going anywhere soon.

Whether you like it or not, North American society is in love with paying big dollars to witness violence in the form of sport.

The professional sport of hockey cannot afford to lose the entertainment value (and revenue dollars) of fighting. And I think the league and the players are sophisticated enough to know and understand that.

As a measure of what Canadian society thinks, the Criminal Code of Canada makes it illegal to engage in a "Prize Fight"...and then proceeds to list numerous examples of "combative sport with fists hands or feet" plus boxing, plus MMA which, if the province gives permission to a match, are therefore not a "Prize Fight."

So literally, if a province sanctions two people bare-fist beating the hell out of each other (for the sake of it itself...not just incidental to a dynamic full-contact sport) then it is entirely lawful. Consensual fights in the parking lot outside the bar are also still lawful (though some municipalities hand out tickets for fighting). Go figure.

In 10 years if we still have boxing and MMA as government-sanctioned violence events then what principled basis is there to remove fighting entirely from the sport of hockey? Especially when as was pointed out earlier in this thread, fighting is already not allowed by the rules and is penalized?

Would it not seem silly to have NHL Hockey in the Dome one night with automatic career expulsion should two players throw a few punches and then the next night fill the same building to watch numerous guys who are actually called "fighters" pounding each other as the object of the event?

Now, maybe you will say that we should also end boxing and MMA, but as reflected by norms codified in criminal law and the popularity of such events in current society, I do not think you will see boxing or MMA disappear...well...ever.

We regulate the events, and license and monitor them...and then consume the entertainment value of those events at extraordinary levels.

Forbes says the value of just the UFC brand name was US$460 million in 2015. The previous year the value of the UFC as a business was pegged at US$1.65 billion.

If you think those in the business of pro hockey never discuss how much fighting brings to their overall take of North American entertainment dollars then it is you who I think is kidding himself.



http://www.thestarphoenix.com/sports...853/story.html

http://www.ctvnews.ca/sports/ufc-pla...list-1.2595642

Fighting is just right where I expect it will stay in hockey for possibly...well...ever.

The exclusive goon is all but eliminated. Instigator and aggressor rules operate to significantly reduce instances of unsafe beatings. Rules prevent taking off the helmet as part of an overt show-fight. Players themselves are much more alive to concerns of long-term health risks. And for many many fans (I know, not all fans) hockey fights remain one of the most exciting events in a game that is second to none for its intensity.

Now, full disclosure, I fought a fair bit on the ice from 18-21. I assure you I did not always win. And I will not lie and say if my son one day plays the way I did that it will not make me nervous and even scared at times.

When players get hurt fighting it makes me cringe. But no more or less than when they get hit from behind or an elbow to the head or a puck to the teeth (which I have also experienced).

If players are not constantly pushing the limits of what their bones can take before breaking, or their muscles can take before tearing, or their heads can take before concussing, then the game is not what it is. Fighting is certainly not necessary in hockey. But a fight can change the entire dynamic on the ice and get a team a win they would otherwise not get. A fight (or the threat of one) can prevent a player from getting hurt by rough or dirty plays. I know I took different liberties in games depending on who was dressed for my opposition.

Puck speeds over 100 mph are also not necessary in hockey. Get rid of carbon graphite and other materials in sticks and the game would be materially safer. And less exciting.

In fact why allow bodychecks or slap-shots at all? Player longevity would skyrocket to all-time highs.

Right, because it would be old-guy no-hit no-fight beer league and last I checked nobody will pay to come watch that.

This argument is easy to defeat.

We're not arguing that people don't like it. What we're arguing is of you removed it, people will still like hockey. There are 30+ hits per game, and maybe 0.2 rights per game. Removing one radically changes the game, the other is a simple small change.

No one is arguing the combatants don't do it willingly, and no one is arguing that people don't like it. Stop with that stuff people.

The equation is:

Fan enjoyment + benefit to hockey > the negative health effects of fighting


For some is true and some it's not. If you're thinking the > isn't getting much smaller though you're wrong

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

I would stop watching. I can't speak for everyone obviously.

I can't say with certainty, but the idea of no hits does really not appeal to me. I'd love the dirty hits gone, but if it went to a no hit league..... it would just be missing something important IMO.

[MBates]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

This argument is easy to defeat.

We're not arguing that people don't like it. What we're arguing is of you removed it, people will still like hockey. There are 30+ hits per game, and maybe 0.2 rights per game. Removing one radically changes the game, the other is a simple small change.

No one is arguing the combatants don't do it willingly, and no one is arguing that people don't like it. Stop with that stuff people.

The equation is:

Fan enjoyment + benefit to hockey > the negative health effects of fighting


For some is true and some it's not. If you're thinking the > isn't getting much smaller though you're wrong

Well I wish I had unverifiable proof to just say you are wrong because I say so. I guess the argument is over because you wrote an equation and told me what the data is according to you.

People love to play hockey without fights, without hits and yes even without slapshots. It's called rec hockey and it is not marketable at the level of the current NHL. This is my opinion. We differ in opinion whether one day it will be.

And I don't disagree that over time true thuggery lovers have become a much smaller group. But I think player safety as the bedrock principle is being far overvalued by the anti-fight side here.

The league and the players have a vested interest in player safety. If it is so self evident fighting must be eliminated from the game why is it still there? You are imposing your own views of how much risk a player should take on behalf of adult professionals who don't assess it the way you do.

I don't think my position is unreasonable to take...I am saying the amount of fighting is right where the league wants it and it will stay where it is now. It is not being promoted and as you say it's a small part of the game. So they have the balance just where they want it. Fans who enjoy fights get what they want. Fights that benefit the game still get done. Negative impacts on player health and safety are within acceptable levels. No reason to take any steps to remove fighting from the game any more than it has been to date.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

In my opinion, the game should be about skill. If you can't hit players then you don't need retribution. There shouldn't be dirty plays, it should be strictly called, dirty plays should be lengthy suspensions.

Bodychecking and fighting are skills. Pretending they aren't circles us back to the point that I was making with UCB - you try to redefine words and phrases like "skill", "key", "important", "part of the game" to try and claim some sort of moral high ground.

[Coach]

The point of body checking is to separate a player from the puck. That is where the skill is. Sometimes people get separated harder than others. Being able to play with the knowledge that you are going to be hit is also a skill. It is what ends up separating NHL players from not. Can you work within the speed of the game? And that speed includes the speed at which you may end up being hit, or how fast you have to make a play before the other player uses their puck separation skill on you. You can argue that the game remains relatively the same without body contact (IE the women's game), but IMO, it does not.

Sure, it's still people skating with sticks fighting over a puck to put it into a net, but it's not the same game. Would football be largely the same if they played with flags instead of hitting? Yes. It would still be people throwing, catching and running with a ball trying to cross a plane 100 yards away from their plane. Players would still run as fast, catches would still be made, quarterbacks would still throw as far, and it could be argued that it would take more skill to avoid having a flag pulled from your belt that it does to avoid being physically taken down by another player. But that's not football, it's flag football. Just like non-contact hockey isn't hockey, it's non-contact hockey.

For me personally, if you put aside the head injury issue all together, I don't find goon fights, assaults like Nurse, staged fights, or attacks after clean plays interesting at all. Not because they lead to injuries (as mentioned multiple times, there are many other legal things in the game that can cause just a serious of injuries), but because they are just straight up not entertaining. If I want to see fighting, I will watch UFC, or boxing. That doesn't mean I don't think that the odd fight born out of boiled over tensions/frustrations in the middle of a playoff series or something is part of the game. I believe it is and I think that part of the game will always remain regardless of the rules you put on it.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Da_Chief

I think time is definitely coming where fighting and to an extent body checking will be gone from the game.

There's overwhelming evidence of physical play causing concussions in football and hockey especially.

The equipment, speed and size of todays players is all too much. Two cars colliding at 40 km/h will cause damage to both cars, imagine human brains rattling in there after a collision like that.

In my opinion, the game should be about skill. If you can't hit players then you don't need retribution. There shouldn't be dirty plays, it should be strictly called, dirty plays should be lengthy suspensions.

Football will be much harder. Potentially they can try tackle zone in thighs only (below the waste, above the knees). I would also get rid of modern day helmets in football, go back to old school helmets. Helmets are used as weapons by many NFL players.

The time is coming though. Especially with the NFL finally owning up to it.

Skill, give me more skill all across the board. I don't care about hitting/fighting.

How could you apply that logic to football where each play ends in a hit? Not only that, but a lot of damage happens to linemen after the snap; it's not just the big tackles off returns and receptions. Football would fundamentally be changed if you wanted to make it "safer". Realistically, football would need to be banned if as a society we felt the risk the players take is too great. Rugby, MMA, boxing, wrestling and other martial arts also.

Hockey I suppose could still be allowable if body checking, shot blocking, and fighting were totally removed, but given how fast hockey is played, incidental contact would still lead to injuries.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Bodychecking and fighting are skills. Pretending they aren't circles us back to the point that I was making with UCB - you try to redefine words and phrases like "skill", "key", "important", "part of the game" to try and claim some sort of moral high ground.

Oh Resolute 14, fighting is a skill as is bodychecking.

The difference is one is a skill that is taught in the progression of a player within a hockey skills set.

The other isn't.

Show me anywhere that fighting is identified as a required skill to be a hockey player. Show me how it fits into Hockey Canada's Long Term Player Development Model.

Matty pointed out, and I agree, that checking isn't about obliterating the puck carrier. It is about separation of puck from carrier.

It isn't about moral high ground.

I have to tell you Resolute 14 I thought of you last night during my beer league game. There was a puck battle down low and the other team's player lost his poop and dropped his gloves/helmet and tried to fight one of our players. Even his own team shouted him down as being an idiot. It is the first fight I have seen in some time.

[Resolute 14]

Keep pretending you hold the moral high ground, UCB. If it is what you need to get through your day, far be it from me to take that from you.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Keep pretending you hold the moral high ground, UCB. If it is what you need to get through your day, far be it from me to take that from you.

LOL, it has nothing to do with moral high ground.


You totally miss the point, because you it seems like you need fighting to be a part of hockey.


You ave yet to show me why fight is necessary in hockey.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

LOL, it has nothing to do with moral high ground.


You totally miss the point, because you it seems like you need fighting to be a part of hockey.


You ave yet to show me why fight is necessary in hockey.

If you haven't figured it out by now then there's no use continuing this debate.

Hockey is a sport for real men and tough women. If there was no contact or fighting then it would be as dull as speed skating.

You don't have to play it. Your kids don't have to play it. You don't have to watch it. Just don't try and ruin the sport for the majority who love it the way it is/has been for 120 years.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

Matty pointed out, and I agree, that checking isn't about obliterating the puck carrier. It is about separation of puck from carrier.



It isn't about moral high ground.

I have to say I agree here and I think a couple people are being ridiculous in their defence of fighting (and even hitting, in the sense it's being talked about).

There is no reason that fighting or big hits need to be in the NHL where the cost doesn't significantly outweigh the benefit. To think that isn't a moral position, it's a logical one.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Jesus...this thread is all sorts of awful ideas.

Limiting bodychecking to separating a man from the puck and nothing more? That's literally called boxing out, and is done in every single non-contact sport from basketball to (puke) soccer. You have essentially created a non-contact sport if you do that.

Focus on predatory hits or hits designed to injure a player. The league has rules regarding this that it enforces with the voracity of a gerbil. Suspensions are disgustingly light. Enforce the damn rules you have, then we can talk about "eliminating body checking". Not that it will ever happen.

And if you hate fighting in the game, keep it simple. Start suspending players for staged fights the way they do with instigators. Treat it like a double-instigator, as both men are essentially instigating. Don't do a damn thing about the fight in the "heat of the moment". It's better to let two guys blow off some steam essentially wrestling one another and smashing their knuckles into helmets than it is to let the steam build, one team decides to take it in their own hands, and we have someone seriously injured from a predatory hit.

But the anti-fighting argument is growing stale. You know as well as I do that if it were ever to be completely eliminated from the game it would have happened at some point over the last 50 years as the game gained popularity. It's a risk of being a hockey player that sometimes you might have to drop the gloves. It's understood. Nobody is surprised by it. In the case that you don't want to engage, guess what??? You never have to!!! Turtle. Do what you feel is in your best interest. If that best interest is served by handing the other guy his chiclets for attempting to bully you, so be it!

This is coming from someone who has dedicated his life to helping people recover from neurological problems, including head injuries. I understood a long time ago that you will never get someone to stop doing something that they love, even if it's killing them. I treat hockey players the same way I treat MMA athletes and boxers. They are just going to show up in your office beat the "f" up, and there's not much to do about it but try and patch them up and give them advice. It's still their choice what to do with their bodies, even if that means destroying themselves.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

If you haven't figured it out by now then there's no use continuing this debate.

Hockey is a sport for real men and tough women. If there was no contact or fighting then it would be as dull as speed skating.

You don't have to play it. Your kids don't have to play it. You don't have to watch it. Just don't try and ruin the sport for the majority who love it the way it is/has been for 120 years.

Aside from being an odd male-fantasy version of hockey and tradition, I'm not sure how you can believe this.

Hockey has vastly changed in 120 years. The physical nature of hockey has vastly changed in 20 years, and hockey just keeps getting more and more popular. People look back on Scott Stevens hits not with arousal at the pure display of real-manliness, but a cringe.

Even the people who just want to see "real men" mash into each will be just fine if you take fighting and big contact out of hockey. It's BEEN happening for years and it continues to happen. It's not a switch. When those things are gone you're not even going to notice, because they died with barely a whimper.

Unless someone is sitting there who doesn't watch the NHL and just waits for the latest Rock Em Sock Em to come out. They'll be bummed.