[Trade] Russell to the Stars for Jokipakka, Pollock & 2nd (becomes 1st if conf finals)

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by the2bears

That's the wrong question. You should start off with "Has Hamilton been mismanaged?" rather than the assumption you so easily conclude.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardodw
All credentials and expectations would have guessed that Hamilton would have been able to pick up an extra 5 minutes a game with Russell, Wideman and Brodie missing..... any ideas why not

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Because a human being with biases and gut feelings controls ice time, not a robot basing on credentials, expectations or even necessarily actual production and performance.

GranteedEV is saying Hartley is messing up Hamilton. He uses mush words and obtuse references so as not to take a strong stand .... but the "human being" ultimately in charge of ice time is Hartley and he has his biases to overrule actual production and performance to limit Hamilton's ice time.

I noticed you offer no opinion on your question: "Has Hamilton been mismanaged?"

You are even more unwilling to take stance on a pretty obvious questions.

Why has Hamilton's ice time not increased when the Flames defense core has been depleted?

It seems pretty obvious to me that Hartley does not think that Hamilton will be successful with increased ice time and responsibilities. Hartley has had a lot more confidence in Russell and Engelland to handle more in the same situation.

Is Hartley correct in his position?

[icecube]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardodw
All credentials and expectations would have guessed that Hamilton would have been able to pick up an extra 5 minutes a game with Russell, Wideman and Brodie missing..... any ideas why not



GranteedEV is saying Hartley is messing up Hamilton. He uses mush words and obtuse references so as not to take a strong stand .... but the "human being" ultimately in charge of ice time is Hartley and he has his biases to overrule actual production and performance to limit Hamilton's ice time.

I noticed you offer no opinion on your question: "Has Hamilton been mismanaged?"

You are even more unwilling to take stance on a pretty obvious questions.

Why has Hamilton's ice time not increased when the Flames defense core has been depleted?

It seems pretty obvious to me that Hartley does not think that Hamilton will be successful with increased ice time and responsibilities. Hartley has had a lot more confidence in Russell and Engelland to handle more in the same situation.

Is Hartley correct in his position?

[FiveSeven]

Let's not forget that Hamilton is only 22...one year older than Monahan. Probably going to put up 40~ points. His game can obviously get better like anyone that age but he sure has done well. 246 games with 114 points? Not bad. We all know defenders usually take longer to develop, all considering, I'd say he's done very well. Especially when you think Russell is gonna get near the same amount of money..

[Enoch Root]

Hartley always gives more time to the vets. For him, ice-time is earned. He is building Hamilton slowly.

This has been discussed more than once. Hamilton is 22. His ice-time, as long as Hartley is the coach, will grow steadily from year to year.

There is no need, nor is there justification, to judge Hamilton's career with the Flames on this year's ice-time.

[the2bears]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Quote:
Originally Posted by ricardodw
All credentials and expectations would have guessed that Hamilton would have been able to pick up an extra 5 minutes a game with Russell, Wideman and Brodie missing..... any ideas why not



GranteedEV is saying Hartley is messing up Hamilton. He uses mush words and obtuse references so as not to take a strong stand .... but the "human being" ultimately in charge of ice time is Hartley and he has his biases to overrule actual production and performance to limit Hamilton's ice time.

I noticed you offer no opinion on your question: "Has Hamilton been mismanaged?"

You are even more unwilling to take stance on a pretty obvious questions.

Why has Hamilton's ice time not increased when the Flames defense core has been depleted?

It seems pretty obvious to me that Hartley does not think that Hamilton will be successful with increased ice time and responsibilities. Hartley has had a lot more confidence in Russell and Engelland to handle more in the same situation.

Is Hartley correct in his position?

No, I don't think Hamilton has been mismanaged. He's improved tremendously in his role here from the beginning of the year. Are you ignoring that (yes) when talking about ice time?

As for what "seems pretty obvious" to you? You see what you want to see, you draw conclusions to support your theories. There are plenty of reasonable explanations for ice time, but you immediately conclude that Hartley doesn't think Hamilton can handle the increase.

[AcGold]

Well... why else wouldn't he get more time? Because Hartley forgot he's on the roster?

OK let's see, Brodie's hurt, Russell, gone..... now who gets more icetime...Gio? Engelland? Kevin? I feel like I'm missing someone here... nah, time to go buy a cake.

[BigFlameDog]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

GranteedEV is saying Hartley is messing up Hamilton.

I'm pretty sure it's you saying that and not GEV....in fact you are pretty much the only one saying that.

[Point Blank]

Can we please not feed into Ricardo's absurd dislike for Hamilton and Hartley? I'd like to see if there's any update on Russell's play and how our forum members think about the recent performances of Kevin and Pollock

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by AcGold

Well... why else wouldn't he get more time? Because Hartley forgot he's on the roster?

More likely it is because he is only 22-years-old. It is astonishing that posters continue to have to make this point.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I think you need to look into the numbers a bit further as well.

Dallas is #3 team in CF% in the league right now (behind LA and Ana), but in these past few games with Russell getting tons of ice (basically the last 5, played relatively low minutes in his first game there) they've had very bad Corsi numbers overall.

Two games barely over 50% against Montreal and New Jersey and then three games below 45% - Ottawa, St.Louis and Chicago. So Russell may be doing better than his teammates, but the overall team performance is down.

But hard to say how much of that is due to Russell and how much is other factors - Klingberg's injury, etc.

True but that's why I focus on CF%Relative

Good possession team with an injury isn't as good as usual, but he's still #1 on the team in a 7 game sample size (which is small)

A team that has great numbers and you're the best can't be ignored, he's doing his part.

I just think it opens up analytics to a whole new layer ... systems, usage, quality of teammates.

You can't just hit sort on a spreadsheet to find diamonds in the rough.

Of course if Russell blows a tire, Boedeker the same and Prince finds it the whole argument is moot.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Hartley always gives more time to the vets. For him, ice-time is earned. He is building Hamilton slowly.

This has been discussed more than once. Hamilton is 22. His ice-time, as long as Hartley is the coach, will grow steadily from year to year.

There is no need, nor is there justification, to judge Hamilton's career with the Flames on this year's ice-time.

Yep in Hartley's first year he had another 22 year old D-man, albeit not the 15th highest paid d-man in the league.

The last month of that year with Bouwmeester leaving a hole in the roster... pretty well the same situation as we have now and Brodie got bumped up from the 16-19 minutes he was getting to 24 minutes for the last 15 games.

Was Brodie that much of a better 22 year old than Hamilton?

[Locke]

Still loving Jokipakka! So much fun to say!

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Yep in Hartley's first year he had another 22 year old D-man, albeit not the 15th highest paid d-man in the league.

The last month of that year with Bouwmeester leaving a hole in the roster... pretty well the same situation as we have now and Brodie got bumped up from the 16-19 minutes he was getting to 24 minutes for the last 15 games.

Was Brodie that much of a better 22 year old than Hamilton?

What would your opinion of Hamilton be if he had signed a 2 year $3.5m AAV bridge contract? I feel like you are basing your opinion of him mostly on the size of his paycheck.

[MrMastodonFarm]

When Bouwmeester was traded the Brodie really only had Giordano still above him on the depth chart. And that Mark Giordano wasn't nearly as good as he is now. 15 points in 47 games. When Russell was traded Hamilton still has Giordano and Brodie ahead of him, two legitimate top pairing defencemen. The need to play a young defender that much is lessened.

And also, Hamilton's been playing big minutes lately. Against the Sharks he played 24 minutes, two days later vs Nashville he was over 27 minutes.

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by ricardodw

Yep in Hartley's first year he had another 22 year old D-man, albeit not the 15th highest paid d-man in the league.

The last month of that year with Bouwmeester leaving a hole in the roster... pretty well the same situation as we have now and Brodie got bumped up from the 16-19 minutes he was getting to 24 minutes for the last 15 games.

Was Brodie that much of a better 22 year old than Hamilton?

Hartley's first year is 2012-13.

Brodie played 47 games, averaging 20:13 in ice time per game. He finished the season with 2 goals, 12 assists and was -9. That's a 0.29 PPG pace, and pro-rates to 24 points over 82 games.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...broditj01.html


To this point, Hamilton has played 68 games under Bob Hartley. He has averaged 19:37 per game. A whole one shift less per game than TJ Brodie was getting at the same age. With one less shift per game, he has 10 goals and 21 assists, -11, and a 0.45 PPG pace. Pro-rated, he's on pace for 37 points.

http://www.hockey-reference.com/play...hamildo01.html

I think Hartley knows what he's doing.

[JJ1532]

Lets not also overlook that Dallas are also missing Demers out of their top 4. Once him and Klinberg return, I'd be surprised to see Russell remain as their top pairing, top ice time d man. I reckon he'd slot in on their 2nd pairing, which is where he was for us. Russell for me is doing no more than what he did last season, stepping up in a pinch. He did it with Wideman when Gio went down and Brodie got saddled with Engellend. Those 2 were lights out until the end of the season.

No matter what he does in Dallas, it doesn't change the fact that we were right to trade him, right not to give him his $5m a year deal(that we couldn't afford) and got the best return possible for him. Kevin has stepped up nicely so far, looks a more than capable replacement who could have the upside to find a place on our 2nd pairing.

Pollock seems to be getting on nicely in the WHL, top point scorer for an Oil Kings team that has the 4th worst goals for record in the whole league. Probably not unfair to say that on a better team with better line mates, he'd have way more points than he does now.

2 serviceable roster players, 3 if the 1st/2nd rounder pans out. An excellent return for a player we had no chance of keeping.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

When Bouwmeester was traded the Brodie really only had Giordano still above him on the depth chart. And that Mark Giordano wasn't nearly as good as he is now. 15 points in 47 games. When Russell was traded Hamilton still has Giordano and Brodie ahead of him, two legitimate top pairing defencemen. The need to play a young defender that much is lessened.

And also, Hamilton's been playing big minutes lately. Against the Sharks he played 24 minutes, two days later vs Nashville he was over 27 minutes.

Well sorry to have to come back with facts but Gio only had Wideman and his 25 minutes a game ahead of him on the depth chart So Brodie was exactly in the same depth spot as Hamilton ... and as previously stated got his ice time bumped up by 20-25%.

[Vinny01]

Reading HF it seems the Stars fans are very pleased with Russell as well. Looks like a win-win in an early post trade analysis

[The Yen Man]

Glad to hear Russell having success so far in Dallas. Now we just need Dallas to win 2 rounds, and we're golden!

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

What would your opinion of Hamilton be if he had signed a 2 year $3.5m AAV bridge contract? I feel like you are basing your opinion of him mostly on the size of his paycheck.

It's not totally unfair to evaluate a player based on how much of the team's salary cap he takes up. Hamilton's contract is one where you hope are getting full value by years 2 or 3 and then exceeding the AAV by end of the contract. At this point, it is still early to tell whether that will happen.

As for Russell, I would argue that Dallas making it to the conference finals is more important to the Flames than picking up a slightly better chance in the lottery. So Go Stars Go.