The PK: Coaching vs. Goaltending

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

We ridiculed Oilers fans for blaming goaltending for their woes for years. Flames fans could see the Oilers issues were deeper than goaltending so why are Flames fans so willing to overlook a team issue and blame their issues on goaltending alone?

Because we have a good defense core? Oilers had 0 NHL defensemen and now they have 2.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

We ridiculed Oilers fans for blaming goaltending for their woes for years. Flames fans could see the Oilers issues were deeper than goaltending so why are Flames fans so willing to overlook a team issue and blame their issues on goaltending alone?

Because of the massive disparity in goals against and save percentages from last season to this year. The Oilers have been consistently awful with a small army of goalies behind them.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

We ridiculed Oilers fans for blaming goaltending for their woes for years. Flames fans could see the Oilers issues were deeper than goaltending so why are Flames fans so willing to overlook a team issue and blame their issues on goaltending alone?

Have you seen Hiller play this year? Do you remember the first two months of the season?

Obviously goaltending isn't the ONLY issue, I don't think anyone has claimed that. It is the biggest issue by far though. We have a team save % of .895 for crying out loud. Or is that the rest of the team's fault?

Normally I wouldn't use goaltending as an excuse but this year it's a valid one. Hiller has a sub .800 sv% on the PK ffs.

[Fan in Exile]

The Flames badly need to address goaltending. Fine. Agreed. With a full season of Ramo providing league average goaltending, the Flames would probably be a bubble team rather than in the Auston Matthews sweepstakes.

BUT stop giving Hartley a free pass for our crappy steadily declining special teams! Twentieth place special teams shouldn't satisfy anyone. We have good enough personnel that this should not happen. When it comes to penalty killing, our guys drop back and give the other teams space. That is the Hartley defensive system that allows a great number of shots, a great number of shot blocks and the opportunity for an inordinate number of bad goals against Hiller in particular. It drives me crazy that with guys like Bouma and Jooris and Frolik that we do not have an aggressive powerplay pressuring the points and taking away time and space. No, instead we have Bouma trying to make a splits save at the top of the circle all the time.

I want to see this team progress and improve. Hartley instilled one good thing - a strong work ethic. He can be commended for that but it's not enough to turn the Flames into a contender. We need someone else to take the next step.

[Erick Estrada]

May I remind you people that even when Ramo was in net for a long stretch playing at least average the team was losing ground on a playoff spot? If one goaltender had a below average SV% and the two others above that's one thing but all three goaltenders are below league average for SV% which points to more of a team issue than individual. A guy like James Reimer isn't going to come in and start stealing victories especially on a team that has the worse combined special teams in the league. Goaltending needs to be addressed but equally important is special teams and defensive play.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

I want to see this team progress and improve. Hartley instilled one good thing - a strong work ethic. He can be commended for that but it's not enough to turn the Flames into a contender. We need someone else to take the next step.

This is absolutely true. The question is, when is the right time to take that "next step"? Is now or in the summer the right time for the Flames to replace the current coaching staff? I'm not convinced of that.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is absolutely true. The question is, when is the right time to take that "next step"? Is now or in the summer the right time for the Flames to replace the current coaching staff? I'm not convinced of that.

That could all depend on what is available for a replacement over the summer. If say Ken Hitchcock gets the axe in St. Louis he could be viewed as a coach to get the team playing a sound two way game and build it into a playoff team. Then of course that seems to be when he hits the wall but there's no point in firing Hartley and replacing him with a guy like Mike Yeo.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

May I remind you people that even when Ramo was in net for a long stretch playing at least average the team was losing ground on a playoff spot? If one goaltender had a below average SV% and the two others above that's one thing but all three goaltenders are below league average for SV% which points to more of a team issue than individual. A guy like James Reimer isn't going to come in and start stealing victories especially on a team that has the worse combined special teams in the league. Goaltending needs to be addressed but equally important is special teams and defensive play.

I think everyone would by-and-large agree with this, but the prevailing problem is that all of these things will not be corrected right away. Replacing Hiller will make an immediate improvement, and it is something that needs to happen in the long run. It is a first step in a process that will include other things eventually, like improved special teams and defensive play. Some of this improvement will occur with player development and maturity, and some of it with coaching.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

That could all depend on what is available for a replacement over the summer. If say Ken Hitchcock gets the axe in St. Louis he could be viewed as a coach to get the team playing a sound two way game and build it into a playoff team. Then of course that seems to be when he hits the wall but there's no point in firing Hartley and replacing him with a guy like Mike Yeo.

You have no argument from me on this. I would prefer to wait it out and closely track the possibility of replacing Hartley and the coaching staff over the course of next season or in summer 2017.

[FireGilbert]

It's all about the players. This version of the Flames is still looking for their Yelle, Regehr, and Kipper.

[chubeyr1]

Blame Goaltending????? Of course you do! Goaltending has been awful this year.

Sure the start of the season without Brodie, Gio recovering, and Hamilton adjusting to a new team did not help out our goalies. Never the less they all were letting in horribly soft goals from terrible angles.

Ramo was bad but improved, Ortio was bad but never given a second chance for 5 months, Hiller was awful past, present, and future. Hiller played alot of good games last year but we are talking about today.

I hate Hillers style of play, he is always on his knees, always. He also doesnt seem to look around players very well.

The team plays differently infront of Ramo or Ortio. Sure they may let in a soft goal now and then, but they are also capable of making up for it with some big saves later on. Even this latest losing streak it was clear the team played much better with Ortio than Hiller.

As for the penalty kill? I gotta put that on coaching. Gelinas needs to lose his job. Business is about results and he has failed miserably. Blame the players? We cycle alot of players through the system and the system does not work! Thats coaching!

As for the powerplay? Same thing, we mount a better threat 5 on 5 than 5 on 3. We have more than enough talent to be effective.
Getting really tired of those long break out passes everyteam is expecting from us.

I love Kris Russell as a warrior, carries his heart on his sleeve yet he is a big reason the PK sucked so bad this year. Anytime a defensemen blocks so many shots its a concern. For a forward to do this you are in the Selke trophy race. For a dman it normally means you are out of position or pushed off the puck far too often AKA Chris Butler.

Russell is a Paul Byron of Dmen. You love him for his heart, but there is no finish in his game.

Been loving Jokipakka Nakladal and Wotherspoon as of late. Sure they have all screwed up, but they are bigger bodies that use their bodies. Our Dmen are so concerned with offense we need a few guys who look after their own zone first.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

We ridiculed Oilers fans for blaming goaltending for their woes for years. Flames fans could see the Oilers issues were deeper than goaltending so why are Flames fans so willing to overlook a team issue and blame their issues on goaltending alone?

I don't necessarily disagree, but you could tell how much more confident the team played last season when they had some trust in the goalies.

Yes, the team as a whole is not playing well, and this includes our top blueliners. However, what is the REASON they aren't playing as well as last season? My guess is there are multiple factors, but I tend to agree with Bingo and others that poor goaltending has led to poor team play.

I firmly believe if the Flames started this season out with, let's say, Ben Bishop as the starter, and Ramo as a very solid backup, the club would be in a playoff spot right now. I believe the team in front of the goalie would have been playing a lot more confident knowing they have a capable net minder behind them.

[BACKCHECK!!!]

Originally Posted by Bingo

any time a debate about goaltending comes up I kind of interject the same point.;

Goaltending transcends goaltending. When you're goaltending is weak players start playing differently than they would when they trust their goaltender. They alter their game to prevent all shots which takes them out of position and creates breakdowns that would suggest goaltending wasn't the problem.

There's not trust there (though Ortio may be building) and it's clear by their lack of control in their game this season.

This runs both ways, though.

If a goalie can't trust the defensemen to take away passes in front of the net, he has to start cheating away from shooting threats and towards the passing threats. "Aww, WTF goalie? You can't even hold your post??"

If the goalie can't trust the defense to support him, he can't just drop off the puck behind the net, he has to try to play it. "Aw man, this goalie handles the puck like a grenade, of course he gets scored on!"

Hockey is a team sport, and most of the time the guy who ends up looking bad isn't the guy who messed things up in the first place.

I'm not saying this is the case in Calgary regarding the goalies, I'm just saying that for the record, I think there are just as many good goalies who look bad because of shoddy defense, as there are teams that play tight because their goalie sucks.

[gvitaly]

Goaltending certainly hasn't helped, but the PK has looked too complacent all year. It is never just one thing that is to blame, especially when you consider being the worst. It is neither the players, not the coaching but the execution doesn't seem to play towards our players' strengths.

Here are some things that bothered me during our PKs(soft goals allowed by the goalies excluded):

1. Standing up the blue line - for some reason our players let the opposing player into the zone and only then try to separate him from the puck, instead of playing the offside.
2. Getting the puck out of the zone along the boards - Often times our players go for the safe play of just unsuccessfully trying to get the puck out along the boards where there are two opposite players that try to keep it in. When that doesn't work they throw the puck to the open wing, where the other's team's defenseman has enough time and space to skate back into our zone and get the puck. Why does it seem so difficult? because of lack of puck support on the Flames' side.
3. Roughing up the man standing in front of the net - self explanatory, but I also miss the cross checks (that are used so effectively on our players every time they get a scoring chance in front of the net and end up falling onto the ice). Long story short, if someone made it to the front of the net I don't want to see them standing by the end of that effort.
4. Giving up too much time and space - The Flames seem to make half hearted attempts at pressuring the puck carrier. Also, often the Flames let someone set-up shop behind the net.
5. Preparing for losing a faceoff - The Flames are 40% on faceoffs on the PK. It makes sense because of the centers they use, but at least make sure you don't get scored on off the draw.
6. Winning the board battles in the corners - It probably has a lot to do with the lack of size on the Flames' end. However, it needs to improve because it is just too effective against the Flames. Trying to tie up the puck in the corner is also an option.
7. Blocking Shots - blocking shots is great, but not when you predictably end up going to your knees every time. Players started to simply fake shots in order to generate a 5 on 3 while our player is trying to get back to his feet. The result is a lot of dangerous scoring chances.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

May I remind you people that even when Ramo was in net for a long stretch playing at least average the team was losing ground on a playoff spot? If one goaltender had a below average SV% and the two others above that's one thing but all three goaltenders are below league average for SV% which points to more of a team issue than individual. A guy like James Reimer isn't going to come in and start stealing victories especially on a team that has the worse combined special teams in the league. Goaltending needs to be addressed but equally important is special teams and defensive play.

Did he ever get to average though?

His .909 save percentage is good compared to the Flames' other options, but he's ranked 49th in the league in save percentage which isn't average at all.

I can understand why you thought it was average though, with the mess it was compared to but by numbers Ramo rose to a below backup at best.

[Bingo]

oh and in other news, Hiller with the Buffalo game was able to retake 1st place in the reverse goalie standings and with Stalock buried in the Leaf system I think he's a cinch to take home the championship!

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Did he ever get to average though?

His .909 save percentage is good compared to the Flames' other options, but he's ranked 49th in the league in save percentage which isn't average at all.

I can understand why you thought it was average though, with the mess it was compared to but by numbers Ramo rose to a below backup at best.

Not a big Ramo fan, but in order to even get to .909 after his horrendous start, he had to play significantly above that. During his "hot" stretch I think he was something like .919.

That said, I think he was regressing back to decidedly average (or below) just before his season ended.

[Fan in Exile]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Goaltending certainly hasn't helped, but the PK has looked too complacent all year. It is never just one thing that is to blame, especially when you consider being the worst. It is neither the players, not the coaching but the execution doesn't seem to play towards our players' strengths.

Here are some things that bothered me during our PKs(soft goals allowed by the goalies excluded):

1. Standing up the blue line - for some reason our players let the opposing player into the zone and only then try to separate him from the puck, instead of playing the offside.
2. Getting the puck out of the zone along the boards - Often times our players go for the safe play of just unsuccessfully trying to get the puck out along the boards where there are two opposite players that try to keep it in. When that doesn't work they throw the puck to the open wing, where the other's team's defenseman has enough time and space to skate back into our zone and get the puck. Why does it seem so difficult? because of lack of puck support on the Flames' side.
3. Roughing up the man standing in front of the net - self explanatory, but I also miss the cross checks (that are used so effectively on our players every time they get a scoring chance in front of the net and end up falling onto the ice). Long story short, if someone made it to the front of the net I don't want to see them standing by the end of that effort.
4. Giving up too much time and space - The Flames seem to make half hearted attempts at pressuring the puck carrier. Also, often the Flames let someone set-up shop behind the net.
5. Preparing for losing a faceoff - The Flames are 40% on faceoffs on the PK. It makes sense because of the centers they use, but at least make sure you don't get scored on off the draw.
6. Winning the board battles in the corners - It probably has a lot to do with the lack of size on the Flames' end. However, it needs to improve because it is just too effective against the Flames. Trying to tie up the puck in the corner is also an option.
7. Blocking Shots - blocking shots is great, but not when you predictably end up going to your knees every time. Players started to simply fake shots in order to generate a 5 on 3 while our player is trying to get back to his feet. The result is a lot of dangerous scoring chances.

Yep, an excellent analysis. An analysis our coaches should have made and adjusted accordingly by game 64, if not a whole season ago. These are bad habits and systems that absolutely need to be changed. I really think you take a hard look at coaching options in the summer.

[JiriHrdina]

^None of the above is a systems thing. That is all individual player execution.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by gvitaly

Goaltending certainly hasn't helped, but the PK has looked too complacent all year. It is never just one thing that is to blame, especially when you consider being the worst. It is neither the players, not the coaching but the execution doesn't seem to play towards our players' strengths.

Here are some things that bothered me during our PKs(soft goals allowed by the goalies excluded):

1. Standing up the blue line - for some reason our players let the opposing player into the zone and only then try to separate him from the puck, instead of playing the offside.
2. Getting the puck out of the zone along the boards - Often times our players go for the safe play of just unsuccessfully trying to get the puck out along the boards where there are two opposite players that try to keep it in. When that doesn't work they throw the puck to the open wing, where the other's team's defenseman has enough time and space to skate back into our zone and get the puck. Why does it seem so difficult? because of lack of puck support on the Flames' side.
3. Roughing up the man standing in front of the net - self explanatory, but I also miss the cross checks (that are used so effectively on our players every time they get a scoring chance in front of the net and end up falling onto the ice). Long story short, if someone made it to the front of the net I don't want to see them standing by the end of that effort.
4. Giving up too much time and space - The Flames seem to make half hearted attempts at pressuring the puck carrier. Also, often the Flames let someone set-up shop behind the net.
5. Preparing for losing a faceoff - The Flames are 40% on faceoffs on the PK. It makes sense because of the centers they use, but at least make sure you don't get scored on off the draw.
6. Winning the board battles in the corners - It probably has a lot to do with the lack of size on the Flames' end. However, it needs to improve because it is just too effective against the Flames. Trying to tie up the puck in the corner is also an option.
7. Blocking Shots - blocking shots is great, but not when you predictably end up going to your knees every time. Players started to simply fake shots in order to generate a 5 on 3 while our player is trying to get back to his feet. The result is a lot of dangerous scoring chances.

I think you're number 1 is far and away the reason for the poor PK and the bad possession numbers. There's no system to prevent zone entries. Hartley wants them to collapse, but it's such an awful way to defend the PK