[GDT] Flames vs Sabres - 5:00 - SNet 360

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

There is absolutely no reason why both goalies cannot end the season on high notes. You cannot honestly believe that Ortio will not get any more starts, do you? He will have plenty of opportunities to play well and to win down the stretch. Again, this is a non-issue, and I expect the balance of playing time in the remaining 20 games will have something to do with ensuring that all the Flames' goalies have opportunities to play well. There is nothing at all wrong with that on a team that will end the season with a lottery pick.

Yes of course, but they way your original post came across was that Hartley was doing Hiller a solid by gifting him an easy game to make him feel better. My response was that if anyone should be gifted an easy game for their confidence it should be the guy who likely has a future with the team. That's all.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Your conclusion kind of ignores the fact that Ortio has started 4 of the last 5 though, no?

His had a 920 start last game. A goalie wasnt given the next game after a 920 start on two occasions this season. Once on a back to back and once when Ramo was sick. So no, it looks like more of the same.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I don't think Hartley personally cares about Ortio's contract status. He's not going to base his decisions on who to start based on that just as he let Ortio rot as the 3rd goaltender for the first few months of the season. It's possible Treliving has discussed this with him but there's still 20 games left so plenty of time for him to get 7 starts.

The beginning of the season is a completely different situation because the goals have changed.

"It's possible Treliving has discussed this with him"? I think it's a pretty safe bet.

Screwing up asset management simply because the GM didn't talk to the coach about it (when they talk every day) would be monumentally incompetent.

[skudr248]

I would RATHER see Backstrom get a couple starts because;

A) Both goalies have shown terribly, my eyes hurt, I want to puke and punch walls when I hear Hiller is starting.

B) I want to see a new goalie in the flames net, ANY goalie. Backstrom would be awesome to see solely on the fact he was great back in his prime and plays a style I like and can actually watch.

C) I hate Hiller with a strong unhealthy passion.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It may also be that Ortio's practice habits, conditioning and demeanour in the early part of the season made an impact on how many starts he was afforded in the first place.

I keep getting back to this because it is important. There is a tonne that we as fans simply will never know that goes into making roster decisions. I am practically certain that the false dichotomy you have concocted to explain the situation is not an accurate reflection of reality.

Well that suggests Hartley is not competent. Take Dallas Eakins for example. He was a nut about diet, physical conditioning, and knowing the "X's and O's", yet his team was terrible and his record was horrendous.

So Hartley being about superficial practice characteristics is interesting, but when your player is clearly better during actual games, then maybe the emphasis should be directed elsewhere

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by kehatch

His had a 920 start last game. A goalie wasnt given the next game after a 920 start on two occasions this season. Once on a back to back and once when Ramo was sick. So no, it looks like more of the same.

Or maybe he thinks a game against Buffalo is a good opportunity to play the backup.

The Flames don't have another back to back until March 20th

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I argue they do have something to lose. They have the potential of Ortio to lose. Without knowing if he's capable of handling starter, or even a backup number of games at the NHL level, they could lose him to free agency or lose his will to want to play for the Flames.

Only if he does not start seven of the remaining games. There is no good reason whatsoever to think that he will not start more than 1/3 of the games down the stretch. Under these conditions there IS nothing to lose: Ortio's options are limited to re-signing with the Flames or walking away from the NHL—probably for good. I'm quite dubious that he would choose to pack it in at this point of his career.

And please don't give us this whole "shame on them" speech. Hiller has made a lot of money. The Flames, and some of their fans (such as myself) has given back to the community and had tried to help people. Hiller is not a charity case, he's an employee who has been given many, many chances to succeed but hasn't proved to be capable.

I hope to god that you are never charged with the employ of people. If you cannot see how utterly petty this attitude is, then shame on you.

Do the Flames owe Hiller anything? No.
Does it follow that they should do everything they can to ensure that Hiller's career is over? No.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Canuck-Hater

There is absolutely no reason to start Hiller. We know what he is and we know he won't be back next season. The Flames should let Ortio run the table and find out what he is. Ortio has earned that because I believe he has outplayed Hiller during this stretch regardless of his record. Also I think the team has more confidence in Ortio. I just can't defend Hartley on this one.

There are lots of good reasons for the coach to potentially play Hiller down the stretch. I won't go into all of them, because I actually agree that Ortio has slightly outplayed Hiller in the past couple of weeks, so that's a good reason to play Ortio.

However, a good reason not to play Ortio down the stretch is something that comes up when we are talking about all young players in here. There is a big crowd in here that feels the bar for starting our young players at the NHL level should be something like this:

- The player in question simply needs to outplay the lowest common denominator veteran on the team in order to earn their starts. In this situation, Ortio only needs to outplay a very brutal Hiller in order to get a start.

If you are interested in developing a player, the above is absolutely not the standard you need to hold, nor is it the right standard if you want to develop a culture of winning. Being better than Hiller right now, is a very low bar. Rewarding Ortio by simply going out and outplaying Hiller is not the way to push him, or show him what it's going to actually take to be taken seriously by the Flames. Hartley can't let the fact that Hiller is hot garbage right now impact what the teams expectations should be for Ortio, especially considering we are out of the picture and making the playoffs (therefore starting our best roster) isn't priority number one. They are forcing Ortio to actually play well (not something he's done consistently), and actually win, to earn consecutive starts, which I think is the right thing if you are trying to push him, get him to taste reality and make him better. Being better than Hiller right now is no difficult task.

You could argue that we "need to see more" of Ortio cause he's RFA. I don't think we really do, as we are likely already decided on our position for Ortio. We have either already given up (which I doubt) or he's simply going to be re-signed with little difficulty, and there is nothing he could do between now and the end of the year given how bad his season has been that will stop us for looking for other goalie options next year. He could go un-defeated from here on out and the Flames still wouldn't feel comfortable handing him the reigns next year, so it's not like we are on the clock to see what we've got in him. We have all of next year to figure that out.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by kehatch

His had a 920 start last game. A goalie wasnt given the next game after a 920 start on two occasions this season. Once on a back to back and once when Ramo was sick. So no, it looks like more of the same.

Also, save percentage in a single game is absolutely useless as a stat.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by edslunch

Yes of course, but they way your original post came across was that Hartley was doing Hiller a solid by gifting him an easy game to make him feel better. My response was that if anyone should be gifted an easy game for their confidence it should be the guy who likely has a future with the team. That's all.

My apologies for the lack of clarity in my post, because all I was attempting to show was that there are certainly good reasons to continue to give Hiller starts down the stretch. That is all.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It may also be that Ortio's practice habits, conditioning and demeanour in the early part of the season made an impact on how many starts he was afforded in the first place.

I keep getting back to this because it is important. There is a tonne that we as fans simply will never know that goes into making roster decisions. I am practically certain that the false dichotomy you have concocted to explain the situation is not an accurate reflection of reality.

This made me laugh.

Textcritic translation: "You are wrong. #### off."

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Also, save percentage in a single game is absolutely useless as a stat.

Are you suggesting he didn't play well? Or are you just making words?

Ortio did play well last game. He also played well in three of the last four but had zero scoring support from his team. A good coach with a focus on development would take advantage of the softer competition tonight and award him with a follow up start. Maybe get some confidence.

There is zero reason to play Hiller tonight. There are plenty of reasons to play Ortio and he earned another start.

So yes, it appears that Hartley is once again going out of his way not to play him.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Only if he does not start seven of the remaining games. There is no good reason whatsoever to think that he will not start more than 1/3 of the games down the stretch. Under these conditions there IS nothing to lose: Ortio's options are limited to re-signing with the Flames or walking away from the NHL—probably for good. I'm quite dubious that he would choose to pack it in at this point of his career.


I hope to god that you are never charged with the employ of people. If you cannot see how utterly petty this attitude is, then shame on you.

Do the Flames owe Hiller anything? No.
Does it follow that they should do everything they can to ensure that Hiller's career is over? No.

I am in charge of the employment of people. I never suggested the Flames ensure that Hiller's career is over. I'm not talking about taking a baseball bat to his leg and finishing what is obviously inevitable. Hiller has ensured his career is over by utterly failing at his 23 chances. He did that. I'm just suggesting the Flames don't foolishly give him chance number 24 when a young and better skilled kid has been patiently waiting for a legit opportunity.

What company can you work for that gives you 4 million dollars guaranteed and then 23 chances despite the first 22 showing you that you're not fit for the job? This isn't regular employment to begin with, so save your spiel about human resources ethics.

[Petert]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

Roger Millions @RogMillions
Jonas Hiller will play in net vs #Sabres #Flames.

You are delusional if you still don't think Hartley needs to be gone.

BTW, #### Hiller.
Totally skipping this game, Hiller simply makes me too mad for something I should be enjoying.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Pages and pages of discussion on Hiller vs. Ortio. I'm genuinely shocked that people are so invested in this. I think we have some idea of what Ortio is at this point after several pro seasons. I don't think that if he were to start every game the rest of the way some sort of revelation would come about as to him becoming our starting goaltender. At best, Ortio can be a backup, but he doesn't have the consistency to be a starter in the NHL. It doesn't really solve our problem though.

Perhaps Treliving and co. have already made a decision as to Ortio's future, and don't need any more games of evidence to be more comfortable with their decision. Perhaps they'd like him to backup in the NHL next year. Perhaps they don't even offer him a contract. Either way, there's very little chance he's our starter next year.

This is why they're bothering to give Backstrom some starts here, as neither Hiller nor Ortio could be a starter, but perhaps Backstrom can give us a season or two as a stop gap. Nobody's really seen him play for over a calendar year, so who knows? One thing is for sure, we've seen both Hiller and Ortio a lot more than Backstrom, and we know what those two have to offer...a lot of losses.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Or maybe he thinks a game against Buffalo is a good opportunity to play the backup.

The Flames don't have another back to back until March 20th

This

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Well that suggests Hartley is not competent. Take Dallas Eakins for example. He was a nut about diet, physical conditioning, and knowing the "X's and O's", yet his team was terrible and his record was horrendous.

Eakins' team was not terrible because he was a "nut about diet, physical conditioning, and knowing the 'X's and O's'". Eakins' team was terrible because his team is, well, terrible, and he is a terrible coach. I expect that there are tremendously good coaches who are also just as concerned about these things.

So Hartley being about superficial practice characteristics is interesting, but when your player is clearly better during actual games, then maybe the emphasis should be directed elsewhere

Like it or not, the age difference, the difference in experience, the difference in contract status, and various factors in practice and development will always factor into roster decisions.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Petert

You are delusional if you still don't think Hartley needs to be gone.

BTW, #### Hiller.
Totally skipping this game, Hiller simply makes me too mad for something I should be enjoying.

You don't want to see if Bennett and Gaudreau can find the chemistry they've had in their very limited time playing together in exhibition etc?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by kehatch

Are you suggesting he didn't play well? Or are you just making words?

Ortio did play well last game. He also played well in three of the last four but had zero scoring support from his team. A good coach with a focus on development would take advantage of the softer competition tonight and award him with a follow up start. Maybe get some confidence.

There is zero reason to play Hiller tonight. There are plenty of reasons to play Ortio and he earned another start.

So yes, it appears that Hartley is once again going out of his way not to play him.

No, I am saying it is a pointless thing to post. If one more puck bounces off someone's knee and goes in, he has an .880 SP. Doesn't change how he played at all.

To the point though, yes he played well. However, he didn't win and Hartley's rule has generally been win or change.

As I have said several times, I think Hartley is just playing two goalies and Hiller is getting some work (against a bottom feeder team).

I think there is absolutely nothing to see here and I think everyone's angst is unjustified.

And no, Hartly is not going out of his way to not play him - unless you think Ortio should get every start for the rest of the season, which I think is silly.

[Robo]

Originally Posted by heep223

You don't want to see if Bennett and Gaudreau can find the chemistry they've had in their very limited time playing together in exhibition etc?

Its hartley they will get 2 shifts to find chemistry and then they will be split up for no apparent reason