TJ Brodie and the Norris

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by dino7c

LA wouldn't trade Doughty for Karlson

And Ottawa wouldn't trade Karlsson for Doughty

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

And Ottawa wouldn't trade Karlsson for Doughty

And thats why they will never win anything

[saillias]

No, they will never win anything because they have a penny pinching owner desperate to sell the team, silly management and a tendency to fire their coaches more often than the Oilers.

To pin that on one player says you don't understand how miniscule the impact of one skater is on a hockey team.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by albertGQ

I'll take Karlson. Doughty's come in the league every 3-5 years. Karlson's come into the league every decade or two.

I think players who lead their team to 28th place come more than every decade or two.

I mean come on. He's putting up tons of points from the back-end and the team is still dropping. He's a career minus player which means he's been on the ice for a hell of a lot of goals against.

When he's on the ice against top competition, the competition scores more than he does. That's why Ottawa is so terrible.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by albertGQ

I'll take Karlson. Doughty's come in the league every 3-5 years. Karlson's come into the league every decade or two.

Doughty is a better overall player than Karlsson so your paragraph does not compute for me.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

And Ottawa wouldn't trade Karlsson for Doughty

Then they are stupid IMO. Why wouldn't you trade for the better defensman?

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by dino7c

And thats why they will never win anything

Can't be because of Kopitar, Quick, Carter, Sutter,, Muzzin, Williams, Gaborik. Only difference I see between the teams is those two defensemen

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I think players who lead their team to 28th place come more than every decade or two.

This is utter nonsense. The Kings aren't good because of Doughty. The Kings are good because of the full 20 man unit, coaching, the entire organization. If you traded Doughty for Karlsson the Kings would continue to be a cup contender and the Sens would continue to be mediocre.

Such a silly argument and everyone continues to make it. Team success has very little to do with any one guy.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Doughty is a better overall player than Karlsson so your paragraph does not compute for me.

Justify the notion that Doughty is a better overall player than Karlsson.

[Komskies]

Karlsson plays over 30 minutes a night, but barely kills penalties. He gets the easier/softer minutes. Out of all players in the league for SH TOI/g, Karlsson is ranked 333rd (1:08/g) Doughty is ranked 19th (3:03/g). Doughty kills penalties 2.7 times more than Karlsson does.

[dino7c]

Saying Doughty is a better overall player isn't saying Karlson is bad I would love to have either on my team fyi but seriously...Drew is due

[Flames Draft Watcher]

If OTT trades Karlsson for Doughty then OTT rises in the standings IMO.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Justify the notion that Doughty is a better overall player than Karlsson.

Easy. Doughty is 10 times better defensively while Karlsson is slightly better offensively.

[saillias]

FDW you're unbearable on this topic. Slighty better offensively lol

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Can't be because of Kopitar, Quick, Carter, Sutter,, Muzzin, Williams, Gaborik. Only difference I see between the teams is those two defensemen

http://edmontonjournal.com/sports/ho...f-final-series

Doughty is an amazing playoff performer.

I'll take that over some additional regular season points that were racked up in losing games.

[dino7c]

Pretty sure most if not all GM's would take Doughty

Drew may have the better team but Karlson would have less points if he played in LA

Daryl wouldn't allow him be be a rover like he is in Ottawa

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Komskies

Karlsson plays over 30 minutes a night, but barely kills penalties. He gets the easier/softer minutes. Out of all players in the league for SH TOI/g, Karlsson is ranked 333rd (1:08/g) Doughty is ranked 19th (3:03/g). Doughty kills penalties 2.7 times more often than Karlsson does.

Doughty's actually ranked 8th with just over 179 total minutes... behind such great defensemen as Roman Polak, Matt Hunwick and Nick Schultz. Might it be possible that given that Karlsson plays 30 minutes a night already, they don't also want him on the PK, when they have other guys who can do that job more or less competently? Maybe he's best deployed where he can best help the team?

Even if that weren't the case, PK TOI is a coaching decision and doesn't reflect player skill necessarily. Show me the actual results that suggest that Doughty's a better PK'er than Karlsson.

Third, PK is a minute portion of the game. It's less than 20% of a defenseman's total TOI even if he PK's a lot. Even strength is far more important than special teams.

As for soft minutes, they actually both get them. The CF per 60 of Doughty's opponents is 53.90, which puts him 56th out of 64 d-men with more than 1000 mins of ice time this season. Karlsson's opponents get 53.58 CF per 60, which is 63rd of 64. Compared to other high-minute defensemen, neither of these guys get sent out to deal with the players who send a lot of rubber at the net. Which is a coaching decision too, but it's one that makes some sense; they can produce more for their own side if they're not facing down Getzlaf and Perry all the time.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Easy. Doughty is 10 times better defensively while Karlsson is slightly better offensively.

Justify this position. You can't just say things. Otherwise you'd be equally justified to say, "Doughty is no better defensively and Karlsson is a thousand times better offensively". Or better yet, "Justin Schultz is the best defenseman in the NHL".

Either there's some basis for what you say or you're talking out of your ass.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Easy. Doughty is 10 times better defensively while Karlsson is slightly better offensively.

You lost me here.

Karlsson has one less point than Tyler Seguin with one less game played. He's 4th in the league in scoring.

[dammage79]

How does anyone other than Erik Karlsson with this trophy this season?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Wanna win a Stanley Cup or a Gold Medal? Doughty will help you.

Some fans don't understand defense in the NHL. Don't know how to evaluate it. Don't know how to watch for it. Some of these people believe the defenseman who scores the most points is the best defenseman in the league. I'm not saying any of you fit in to this category, a lot of the people I disagree with about Karlsson are still sophisticated fans.

If you have the ability to evaluate defensive play at the NHL level and you've watched a lot of Drew Doughty then you know he's arguably the best defenseman in the NHL. Same could be said of Duncan Keith, he's in the that conversation too. Erik Karlsson fails to possess the overall game of either of those guys, sorry fanboys. There's two ends of the rink and you have to evaluate defensemen on their play in both ends, not just in the offensive end. Karlsson is far from elite in his own end. He's elite in the offensive zone and neutral zone. That's reality as I see it. Karlsson helps you score goals and does less to help you prevent goals. Doughty helps you prevent goals and helps you score goals.

Some people philosophically disagree with the idea of awarding the Norris to someone who isn't elite in their own end. Some people want the Norris to go to a defenseman who helps you prevent goals.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Doughty's actually ranked 8th... behind such great defensemen as Roman Polak, Matt Hunwick and Nick Schultz. Might it be possible that given that Karlsson plays 30 minutes a night already, they don't also want him on the PK, when they have other guys who can do that job more or less competently? Maybe he's best deployed where he can best help the team?

Even if that weren't the case, PK TOI is a coaching decision and doesn't reflect player skill necessarily. Show me the actual results that suggest that Doughty's a better PK'er than Karlsson.

Third, PK is a minute portion of the game. It's less than 20% of a defenseman's total TOI even if he PK's a lot. Even strength is far more important than special teams.

As for soft minutes, they actually both get them. The CF per 60 of Doughty's opponents is 53.90, which puts him 56th out of 64 d-men with more than 1000 mins of ice time this season. Karlsson's opponents get 53.58 CF per 60, which is 63rd of 64. Compared to other high-minute defensemen, neither of these guys get sent out to deal with the players who send a lot of rubber at the net. Which is a coaching decision too, but it's one that makes some sense; they can produce more for their own side if they're not facing down Getzlaf and Perry all the time.

This was quite a fun read.

If a player plays a lot of PK that means the coach trusts him to play PK. Special teams are the most important part of the game and the most important minutes. Games are won and lost by special teams. The coach doesn't trust Karlsson to be a regular PKer and I'm assuming there is some sort of reason for it.

Probably the same reason that Karlsson is always paired with a shutdown defensemen. He would get exposed way more often if he wasn't paired with players like Methot.

Remember when the Sedin's were forced into the 1st PK unit? They had terrible seasons and their lowest point production to date. I bet we'd see the same if Karlsson had less even strength/PP minutes and actually had to PK.