When is our rebuild no longer a rebuild?

[dustygoon]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

When we have are spending to the cap we are done rebuilding and we can assess how the rebuild went.

We need a goalie.

All posts should end with your last sentence.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Traditional_Ale

On the ice I've seen Gaudreau single-handedly take over games, something I haven't seen Monahan do. Like I've seen Toews do. I get the comparisons, and the numbers, but there is an extra gear, a thing, that people like Toews, Messier, Yzerman, and such have that I don't think Monahan has. I think that is why he will be the best second-line center in the league one day, but nobody is going to argue with me that Sam Bennett isn't going to be the star first-line center. I think he'd be a better comparison to players that have the "extra gear."

People change. And a Johnny Gaudreau motivated enough to allow the leadership of the team to be put on his shoulders as well as his drive to be the difference maker on the ice would be deadly.

It's an odd decision to come to though.

Monahan "isn't the type" when he's worn a letter on every team at every level he's played. Captain of his midget team, first assistant than captain of the Ottawa 67's in the CHL, wore a letter for the top prospects game and now assistant captain of an NHL club. But somehow Johnny Gaudreau, who never wore a letter in the USHL, in College for Boston, in the World Juniors for the US or now on the Flames will?

Gaudreau could very well wear a letter but it's pretty clear which type of player is the natural leader and which isn't.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

If the Flames did a TRUE rebuild they would/should have dealt Wideman, Gio, Hudler and more 2 years ago.

That would have been a proper teardown. Look at Toronto's roster.

I am not saying it is the correct method. However, really the Flames aren't 'rebuilding' anymore. They are trying to improve, but so is every other team.

The Flames rebuild was held back or slowed up because they held onto Iggy for one year too many. Regehr, Bourque, Langkow and Iggy all should have been dealt in 2012.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Buff

Most people would appreciate it if you didn't use that word in such a negative context.

I agree. Can I get you to give me an example of using the word in a positive context?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

"Pretty big margins"? You're talking about a couple of percentage points in the duration of play at even strength. This only amounts to a handful of shot attempts for+against/game in the course of probably little more than 60 seconds of actual game time.

That's hardly much of a difference at all.

It's enough to separate teams that succeed and teams that don't. But you're right that just barely meeting my abritrary threshold isn't a time to be satisfied. But it's a time to start looking to add and fill out the small holes in the roster, and any time before that is rushing. You're welcome to disagree with me and like many here just believe that the only thing this team is missing is a goaltender but that's an Oilers mentality. And they had a pretty functional Dubnyk for a few years before he fell apart.

[Enoch Root]

Oh good, another corsi thread.

GranteedEV: correlation is not the same as causation

You don't become a better hockey team by becoming a better possession team - you become a better possession team (likely) by becoming a better hockey team.

And the NYRangers are most definitely still contenders, regardless of their corsi numbers.

[Enoch Root]

As to teh OP: the rebuild is over when the focus of the team, and its transactions, moves from primarily 'future oriented' to primarily 'present oriented'.

As of right now, they are most definitely still in rebuild mode.

In a couple years, when more of the holes are filled, and they start thinking about acquiring pieces to actually help them 'win' vs help them 'build', they are no longer a rebuilding team.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

And the NYRangers are most definitely still contenders, regardless of their corsi numbers.

Yep. Winning the possession game doesn't matter as much as winning the battle of the goaltenders. In the playoffs if you're a decent team and you have Lundqvist or Price then you're a contender.

Goaltending is the most important position. If we can find a real goalie then our rebuild takes two steps forward. Having competent goaltending is going to help our defensive play.

[Duke43]

Basically I agree, however I am of the expressed opinion that one of Colborne or Ferland will be moved at some point. Colborne has been held back by coaches decision and Ferland needs to be motivated. I think the puck dies on Jooris stick far to often and he too has been sat frequently. Arnold is in tough to make this team as it stands. I liked Hathaways game last night and if we are able to continue Grants contract, he should be strongly considered.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well by a lot of metrics Monahan may be considered a #1 centre already. Between Bennett and Monahan I think we have the top two centres covered, I think its safe to say. Two guys taken high in the draft with high upsides. Doesn't necessarily matter which one you consider the #1 guy to be right now.

I think it's a little silly to say we our #1 centre slot is a hole that we need to fill long term. Even the most pessimistic of posters would think that one of Bennett and Monahan will become ours wouldn't they?

Fair enough. I think it depends on your definition of a number one centre. Do I think Monahan could drive production if Gaudreau was injured? I mean Conroy once put up "number 1 centre" stats, but he was never a legit number 1 in my eyes. I think Monahan is more situated as a number 2 in the West because of his slow first few steps. Doesn't he won't keep growing, he's still young and talented.

Bennett, Id like to see with 15 more pounds and played at centre more before I can say for sure

[codynw]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Fair enough. I think it depends on your definition of a number one centre. Do I think Monahan could drive production if Gaudreau was injured? I mean Conroy once put up "number 1 centre" stats, but he was never a legit number 1 in my eyes. I think Monahan is more situated as a number 2 in the West because of his slow first few steps. Doesn't he won't keep growing, he's still young and talented.

Bennett, Id like to see with 15 more pounds and played at centre more before I can say for sure

Bennett has been playing at center for a while now.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

GranteedEV: correlation is not the same as causation

You don't become a better hockey team by becoming a better possession team - you become a better possession team (likely) by becoming a better hockey team.

Since when have I ever implied stats are ever causation?

I'm not the one who says Monahan > Toews offensively because he has better stats. I"m not the one who said Wideman is a top 4 defenseman because he has top 4 stats.

I've always maintained that good play (systems, and individual) leads to good stats, and good play leads to good results. Good stats are a reflection of good play, and good results are a reflection of good play. Good stats and Good results are correlated.

I'll tell you one thing though, bad stats and good results are fools gold. Good stats and bad results are nothing to panic about.

And the NYRangers are most definitely still contenders, regardless of their corsi numbers.

They have a chance to surprise because they have Henrik Lundqvist, but I'm not banking on us adding a top 3 goalie in the world.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Yep. Winning the possession game doesn't matter as much as winning the battle of the goaltenders. In the playoffs if you're a decent team and you have Lundqvist or Price then you're a contender.

Goaltending is the most important position. If we can find a real goalie then our rebuild takes two steps forward. Having competent goaltending is going to help our defensive play.

Montreal is a good example of this.

With Price Montreal was the #1 team in the East and looked like a top contender.
Without Price Montreal has been a top contender for Matthews.

However, it's not the only way to build a cup contender. Chicago has won 3 Stanley cups without a top-5 NHL goalie. L.A has won 2 cups WITH a top-5 NHL goalie.

I would say that Calgary with Price would be a playoff contender. But the cost to get Price would be our top 3 players so obviously not a real possibility.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Fair enough. I think it depends on your definition of a number one centre. Do I think Monahan could drive production if Gaudreau was injured? I mean Conroy once put up "number 1 centre" stats, but he was never a legit number 1 in my eyes. I think Monahan is more situated as a number 2 in the West because of his slow first few steps. Doesn't he won't keep growing, he's still young and talented.

Bennett, Id like to see with 15 more pounds and played at centre more before I can say for sure

Monahan scored 22 goals on the 3rd line his rookie season without much assistance.

Anything else?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Fair enough. I think it depends on your definition of a number one centre. Do I think Monahan could drive production if Gaudreau was injured? I mean Conroy once put up "number 1 centre" stats, but he was never a legit number 1 in my eyes. I think Monahan is more situated as a number 2 in the West because of his slow first few steps. Doesn't he won't keep growing, he's still young and talented.

Bennett, Id like to see with 15 more pounds and played at centre more before I can say for sure

Okay this sounds more like a philosophy issue.

Some of us are comfortable "projecting" Bennett as a #1 centre and Monahan as a #1 centre. You don't want to "project" either of them into the future, you want to judge them as they are now. Which is totally fair, just a different viewpoint.

Some of us look at Bennett and think we know what he'll be in 2 years. And that is a #1 centre. Unlikely Monahan has plateued yet either so a lot of us are projecting him as a #1 centre as well. Therefore a lot of us think we have two legit #1 centres for the future so we're set there and are happy to pencil is whichever guy there we want, doesn't really matter.

If you want to take a more conservative, wait and see approach that's fair. But this is a thread about our rebuild in general so some people's lineup is their lineup projecting players 2 years into the future. So they are projecting the youngest kids to their full potential and in the roles they think they will grow into. Not the roles they are currently suited for.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by spuzzum

Which year is this team no longer in a rebuild considering our current state?

Rebuild is just a term. I think we should be out of the "rebuild" next year, then we'll be "building" for two more, then we should consider ourselves built. That's the point at which we'll have our core three d-men under contract, and Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, this years top pick all off their ELC's and all the current bad money off the books.

If we still stink at that point then I'm sorry to say we're the new Edmonton Oilers.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

Monahan scored 22 goals on the 3rd line his rookie season without much assistance.

Anything else?

Ok, so we now know Monahan can be a great 3rd line centre. But what does that have to do with what I was talking about?

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Since when have I ever implied stats are ever causation?

I'm not the one who says Monahan > Toews offensively because he has better stats. I"m not the one who said Wideman is a top 4 defenseman because he has top 4 stats.

I've always maintained that good play (systems, and individual) leads to good stats, and good play leads to good results. Good stats are a reflection of good play, and good results are a reflection of good play. Good stats and Good results are correlated.

I'll tell you one thing though, bad stats and good results are fools gold. Good stats and bad results are nothing to panic about.



They have a chance to surprise because they have Henrik Lundqvist, but I'm not banking on us adding a top 3 goalie in the world.

Since right here in this quote:

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Hold YOUR horses there. The 2014 Rangers had Anton Stralman and fulfiled my criteria with mostly Flying Colors:

52.4% CF
52.6% FF
15th ranked PP

This year's Rangers do not.

47.7% CF
48.5% FF
23rd ranked PP

It does not get more pretender than that. They're not the same team.

Your argument is direct: the Rangers are pretenders because their corsi sucks.

In other words: good corsi = contender

In other words, corsi causes being a contender

Clear enough?

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Ok, so we now know Monahan can be a great 3rd line centre. But what does that have to do with what I was talking about?

Can he score without Gaudreau, yes he can.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Since right here in this quote:


Your argument is direct: the Rangers are pretenders because their corsi sucks.

In other words: good corsi = contender

In other words, corsi causes being a contender

Clear enough?

The rangers are pretenders because they're a bad team that relies on elite goaltending. Their corsi and power play stats both reflect that.

Good corsi correlates to contender
Good goaltending + Good special teams + Good even strength Play cause being a contender.
Good corsi reflects good even strength play. It does not cause it.

Quit being obtuse.