Teacher's Salary Increase Possible

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

I think some basic level of comprehension of the subject being taught would be useful for determining whether the person was doing a good job teaching it or not. Can they evaluate classroom management, etc, sure.

But what happens when the teacher explains that the derivative of a constant is also a constant, "because you always add a constant to the end in calculus." Shouldn't it be someone's job to determine whether the people teaching stuff actually know it?

The students' grades are a pretty obvious measure of the teacher's ability to teach the subject matter.

[icecube]

Originally Posted by Sliver

The students' grades are a pretty obvious measure of the teacher's ability to teach the subject matter.

You do realize that teachers are the one's giving out the assessments and the evaluations, right? Math is obviously an objective subject area with right or wrong answers. There are plenty of subjects where grading turns out to be a subjective process when it comes down to it. You can both have all the rubrics in the world and one teachers grades could look different than another's.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Sliver

The students' grades are a pretty obvious measure of the teacher's ability to teach the subject matter.

Incorrect

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by Sliver

The students' grades are a pretty obvious measure of the teacher's ability to teach the subject matter.

The biggest factor affecting test scores is parental income.

[peter12]

Well, intelligence, too... Obviously. Not always, of course.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by bizaro86

The biggest factor affecting test scores is parental income.

I know, but that's not a difficult thing to factor in when looking at test scores.

Test scores are without a doubt an indicator of the quality of instruction a teacher gives. To think you need a calculus teacher to evaluate the quality of instruction another calculus teacher is giving is kind of silly. What's the point of having subject matter experts if you have to hire an extra subject matter expert to evaluate your first subject matter expert across all subjects? Do we get a historian to evaluate social studies teachers? An English professor to evaluate English teachers? An artist to evaluate art teachers? It's just such an impractical suggestion IMO.

[Daradon]

I think most teachers would echo WinnipegFan's sentiment. The biggest issues are class size, support, and ability to teach students and do the job well.

However, since it seems apparent the government and the public at large have no will to make these things better or make education of our new generations a priority, I have no problem with teachers getting a raise to put up with the ridiculousness that has become the modern education system.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Daradon

However, since it seems apparent the government and the public at large have no will to make these things better or make education of our new generations a priority, I have no problem with teachers getting a raise to put up with the ridiculousness that has become the modern education system.

How much do we need to spend to prove education is a priority? We're already close to top in the world in spending. And let's not forget that there's only one public purse, somore money for education means less money for something else - probably health care.

The answer might be to cut teacher pay by 15 per cent and hire 15 per cent more teachers. But I'm skeptical the teachers unions would be on-board.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

How much do we need to spend to prove education is a priority? We're already close to top in the world in spending. And let's not forget that there's only one public purse, somore money for education means less money for something else - probably health care.

The answer might be to cut teacher pay by 15 per cent and hire 15 per cent more teachers. But I'm skeptical the teachers unions would be on-board.

That's the crux. I think the funny thing is, people like the OP would be on board (hence the post), but votes rarely go that way. People are scared, and they cling to their paycheques because everything else was already screwed up. It's the last means of control.

If it could be shown conditions would greatly improve for both teachers and students, at the cost of salary, I think everyone would be on board, teachers included. How we get there, I'm not sure. Teachers cling to their salary not because their greedy, but because we ask them to do more and more every year, and give them no help to do it. Parents use the schools like daycare more than ever, take less time teaching kids on their own, get mad if the teacher gives them a bad grade. Teachers hands are tied in nearly everything they do and that's why they get so frustrated at work. They literally face lawsuits over meaningless trival stuff because 'billy's' parents believe billy over the teacher.

I don't have a solution unfortunately, but from the teachers I know, and the post that started this all, most teachers would gladly give up salary if they were viewed differently and given the respect they deserve. Allowed to do their job properly. Treated like the professionals they go to school for five years for, instead of a daycare mom who's opinion means nothing.

We need some sort of social shift, but since that isn't happening anytime soon, teachers will ask for more money to do an increasingly hard and thankless job.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Sliver

The students' grades are a pretty obvious measure of the teacher's ability to teach the subject matter.

A students improvement over the course of a year relative to the average improvement shown by students in similar demographic circumstances is the measure of a good teacher.

I wish I remember what book I read about a bunch of data analysis on the No child left behind program and you could tell which teachers were cheating, which were mediocre and which were producing sustained consistent results several standard deviations above other teachers.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Daradon

We need some sort of social shift, but since that isn't happening anytime soon, teachers will ask for more money to do an increasingly hard and thankless job.

It would be interesting to hear from a long-time teacher about how, in particular, the job of teaching has gotten harder over the last 20-30 years.

[woob]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

If a teacher gets let go, their essentially done in their industry as their are only 3 options

Sorry to pick on you Kavvy, but:



If this was on purpose, well played.

[bizaro86]

Originally Posted by GGG

A students improvement over the course of a year relative to the average improvement shown by students in similar demographic circumstances is the measure of a good teacher.

I wish I remember what book I read about a bunch of data analysis on the No child left behind program and you could tell which teachers were cheating, which were mediocre and which were producing sustained consistent results several standard deviations above other teachers.

This is much more reasonable, imo, than test scores alone.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

It would be interesting to hear from a long-time teacher about how, in particular, the job of teaching has gotten harder over the last 20-30 years.

My mom is just such a person, that's where the majority of my feelings come from. Unfortunately teachers are not allowed to speak very openly about such things. Even I could get her in trouble if I mentioned specifics.

Suffice it to say things have changed a lot in that time frame. Shoot, I'm not even in my 40's yet, and I remember the strap being used in school. I'm not saying that was a good thing, just using it as an example of how quickly things have changed. I'm also not trying to be grumpy old man with 'kids these days' comments, kids will always be kids. In my view it's more about the parents these days. So many that are completely unreasonable.

[kootenayguy9]

As a teacher for almost twenty years I find this an accurate description of the complex nature of our classrooms.

[Regorium]

Originally Posted by GGG

A students improvement over the course of a year relative to the average improvement shown by students in similar demographic circumstances is the measure of a good teacher.

I wish I remember what book I read about a bunch of data analysis on the No child left behind program and you could tell which teachers were cheating, which were mediocre and which were producing sustained consistent results several standard deviations above other teachers.

I believe that book (or article, I can't remember either) concluded that even though it was painfully obvious to the group of researchers who were the best teachers and who were the worst, no actions were ever taken because the teacher's union went all "ready to engage" on them.

Seniority ruled all, and the worst teachers got promotions and raises at the same rate as the best teachers.

[bizaro86]

Was that in Freakonomics by any chance?

[Mr.Coffee]

Last 3-5 years, as evidenced by that chart and there are all those serious problems?

Something about that seems like it's social media causing the problem.

[Daradon]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Last 3-5 years, as evidenced by that chart and there are all those serious problems?

Something about that seems like it's social media causing the problem.

Woof. Pretty harsh.

I don't disagree that the infographic is one sided, I don't even like the quote myself. Unsolicited and heavy handed.

But it brings up points the public doesn't think about. Todays teachers have to be part psychologist, part doctor (have to know all about the meds their students are or are not on), part daycare/legal guardian, part volunteer athlete, part law student.

All the while educating and motivating.

There is a simple argument, idiom mostly. Yes, there are some bad teachers. Like any job. But more than most professions, teachers get involved cause they want to help. Make a difference.

The idiom is... no one ever went into teaching for the money.

Be honest, have you ever heard that?

Did you have a friend in university who was all 'I'm going into teaching for the free ride and the massive pay'?

[Sliver]

Literally every teacher I have known got into teaching for the full-time pay for 3/4 time work. Take away their three months off per year and teachers would fataing riot in the streets.