Man who beheaded fellow bus passenger wants to live on his own

[Oling_Roachinen]

We got a judge find him not criminally responsible. So he's not a criminal, he wasn't sentenced for the murder. Instead he was sent to a provincial psychiatric facility until such a time that the review board found him to be no longer a risk to public.

It's pretty black and white to me. If the review board, based on the expert opinions of the psychiatrists and other doctors, finds that he is no longer a risk to public he needs to be released under whatever conditions the review board finds necessary. Anything else would be an insult to our justice system. Canada is not, or should not, be a savage country. We should not punish innocent men (and as much as you may argue against it, our justice system did not find him guilty) and we do not act on ill-informed uneducated public feelings (except when it comes to water and dental health). If the review board has doubts, those doubts need to be from the experts and not "public opinion."

It's also been a year since he was first granted unescorted day passes to Winnipeg (and before that Selkirk). This has been a gradual process and the doctors would appear to be taking every precaution.

[heep223]

Medication is the key here. If he stays medicated he will be fine back in society.

The problem is that people with psychosis and/or schizo diseases often go off their medication and lie about it, only to regress into previous behaviour patterns pretty quickly and without warning.

I have seen this numerous times first hand and that's why I find it scary.

Edit: I see someone is talking about this a few posts up and assuming it's discussed in the thread. It can be quite difficult to monitor and keep these guys on their meds, unless they're forced injection.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Cyclops

I can name you hundreds. How long did Karla Homolka spend in jail? Graham James? Those are 2 high profile cases. Did you want to have a look at any crime involving children and see what punishment the criminal got?

I deem those worse than beheading an adult on a bus while passengers watch.

Hundreds? you couldn't even name one so far. Karla did 10 years out of a 12 year sentence from a plea bargain. right or wrong her testimony did help to put another monster away forever.

Trust me when I say this, if Graham James did those things to my child they would be still looking for his body but cutting off someones head and parading it around like a trophy should be considered a far worst crime.

Sic in the head or not, 8 years in a country club hospital is not punishment for his crime it's a disgrace, how would you like to be the mother or father of the victim knowing the killer of your child is out after 8 years because they "fixed" him with meds.

Now that he's "fixed" he should be re-charged and convicted of manslaughter and sent to prison not let out like nothing happened.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

We got a judge find him not criminally responsible. So he's not a criminal, he wasn't sentenced for the murder. Instead he was sent to a provincial psychiatric facility until such a time that the review board found him to be no longer a risk to public.

It's pretty black and white to me. If the review board, based on the expert opinions of the psychiatrists and other doctors, finds that he is no longer a risk to public he needs to be released under whatever conditions the review board finds necessary. Anything else would be an insult to our justice system. Canada is not, or should not, be a savage country. We should not punish innocent men (and as much as you may argue against it, our justice system did not find him guilty) and we do not act on ill-informed uneducated public feelings (except when it comes to water and dental health). If the review board has doubts, those doubts need to be from the experts and not "public opinion."

It's also been a year since he was first granted unescorted day passes to Winnipeg (and before that Selkirk). This has been a gradual process and the doctors would appear to be taking every precaution.

I hope nothing bad ever happens to one of your family members because you will be a very torn person.

It's amazing how peoples hearts bleed for everyone but the victim or the family's effected.

[Jason14h]

Would you let him watch your child alone?

It's easy to play politically correct on a message board.

If the man is medically sick, I'm all for not throwing him in a hole for the rest of his life. I'm also all for insuring there is a 0% chance he does this again. Keep him 100% under supervision till the day he dies.

[KelVarnsen]

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by T@T

I hope nothing bad ever happens to one of your family members because you will be a very torn person.

It's amazing how peoples hearts bleed for everyone but the victim or the family's effected.

You can still feel for the victim's family, the first responders and everyone on that bus while understanding the situation. Here we have a man who had no control of his actions, a man who was told by Jesus that the person next to him was a demon and cutting off his head was still not enough to prevent the beheaded demon from attacking. Now we have a man who is remorseful and the experts have agreed is ready for the next step in his treatment, the only thing he was ever 'sentenced' to do.

We're not talking about someone of sane mind. Trying to equate guilt with that is such an archaic mindset that we've had laws in place since before the 19th century to protect those who can't be judged criminally responsible for their actions.

I understand it would be extremely hard for those affected to take a step back and base their opinions on the laws and ideals of our society. No one is asking them to. Still, we can't live in a society where the victim gets to decide punishment. If we did, the ####### who stole my bike would have had his legs chopped off.

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Would you let him watch your child alone?

What? Who's asking you to leave him alone with your children??

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

We got a judge find him not criminally responsible. So he's not a criminal, he wasn't sentenced for the murder. Instead he was sent to a provincial psychiatric facility until such a time that the review board found him to be no longer a risk to public.

It's pretty black and white to me. If the review board, based on the expert opinions of the psychiatrists and other doctors, finds that he is no longer a risk to public he needs to be released under whatever conditions the review board finds necessary. Anything else would be an insult to our justice system. Canada is not, or should not, be a savage country. We should not punish innocent men (and as much as you may argue against it, our justice system did not find him guilty) and we do not act on ill-informed uneducated public feelings (except when it comes to water and dental health). If the review board has doubts, those doubts need to be from the experts and not "public opinion."

It's also been a year since he was first granted unescorted day passes to Winnipeg (and before that Selkirk). This has been a gradual process and the doctors would appear to be taking every precaution.

This is a tough debate. I've usually been the guy preaching to lock someone who does something like this up and throw away the key. And while I've kind of come around lately similar to Polak has, a piece of me still feels it's not right that he's being let out, criminally responsible or not.

I get that he wasn't found criminally responsible and therefore technically isn't a criminal in the eyes of the law due to his mental health at the time. But the fact is, someone cut off Tim Mclean's head. Who did it? Vince Li did. And that is what is pretty black and white to me. And just because a panel of expert doctors and psychiatrists deem him no longer a risk to the public, why does that mean he needs to be released? Yeah I get Canada isn't a savage country and our politician's love the rehab/rehabilitation route. Part of that is what makes this country so great. People may also argue he is an innocent man, and according to the eyes of the law he has been deemed that.

But again, who cut off Tim Mclean's head? Vince Li did. In this case I'm sided with the victims' families. Lost is all of this is how they are the ones who suffer the most with Li's release and will continue to do so for the rest of their lives. And yet Vince Li is recognized by the law as an innocent man who should be given a second chance. What sort of assistance will the victim's get? Do they even get assistance? I'm not sure and hopefully I'll never have to be in a position to find out.

So I'm very much on the fence these days with the whole 'criminally responsible' thing. I guess that is progress from where I used to be (lock up and throw away the key). I'll just say that I'm glad it's not me making the decision to release him, because people's lives are literally on the line. All we can do is hope and pray that the experts who are professionally trained to determine if Li is capable of doing something like this to someone else are correct in releasing him. And if god forbid Li ever does something like this again, those who were responsible for releasing him should be reprimanded and be held responsible for releasing someone like that back into society.

[pylon]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

This is a tough debate. I've usually been the guy preaching to lock someone who does something like this up and throw away the key. And while I've kind of come around lately similar to Polak has, a piece of me still feels it's not right that he's being let out, criminally responsible or not.

I get that he wasn't found criminally responsible and therefore technically isn't a criminal in the eyes of the law due to his mental health at the time. But the fact is, someone cut off Tim Mclean's head. Who did it? Vince Li did. And that is what is pretty black and white to me. And just because a panel of expert doctors and psychiatrists deem him no longer a risk to the public, why does that mean he needs to be released? Yeah I get Canada isn't a savage country and our politician's love the rehab/rehabilitation route. Part of that is what makes this country so great. People may also argue he is an innocent man, and according to the eyes of the law he has been deemed that.

But again, who cut off Tim Mclean's head? Vince Li did. In this case I'm sided with the victims' families. Lost is all of this is how they are the ones who suffer the most with Li's release and will continue to do so for the rest of their lives. And yet Vince Li is recognized by the law as an innocent man who should be given a second chance. What sort of assistance will the victim's get? Do they even get assistance? I'm not sure and hopefully I'll never have to be in a position to find out.

So I'm very much on the fence these days with the whole 'criminally responsible' thing. I guess that is progress from where I used to be (lock up and throw away the key). I'll just say that I'm glad it's not me making the decision to release him, because people's lives are literally on the line. All we can do is hope and pray that the experts who are professionally trained to determine if Li is capable of doing something like this to someone else are correct in releasing him. And if god forbid Li ever does something like this again, those who were responsible for releasing him should be reprimanded and be held responsible for releasing someone like that back into society.

Very well put, and that pretty much sums up my feelings. Where was the millions of dollars in tax payer funded help for the RCMP officer that committed suicide? Why was that story pretty much ignored by Li's sympathizers? And although I prey it doesn't happen, I would be really interested to see the stance his sympathizers have, if he ditches his meds, and kills again.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by pylon

Very well put, and that pretty much sums up my feelings. Where was the millions of dollars in tax payer funded help for the RCMP officer that committed suicide? Why was that story pretty much ignored by Li's sympathizers?

His name is Ken Barker, he was a 20 year member.

And although I prey it doesn't happen, I would be really interested to see the stance his sympathizers have, if he ditches his meds, and kills again.

Ok, was he on meds before he killed Tim Mclean?

[FlamesAddiction]

I actually do feel sorry for Li. Not as much as I do for the victim and his family, but sympathy isn't black and white.

It seems like Li was distraught and traumatized by what his illness made him do. After he was apprehended and had clarity, he asked the police to kill him.

Having said that, I have trouble understanding how someone that ill can ever be a normal person in society. As much as he wants to be normal and it's not his fault, I just don't know if I am convinced that the greater good for society is to give him more independence. I know that if I found out he was moving in next door to me, I would be pretty nervous.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by pylon

And although I prey it doesn't happen, I would be really interested to see the stance his sympathizers have, if he ditches his meds, and kills again.

We're deferring to neutral experts who have been educated, trained and have years of experience in dealing with persons with mental illnesses. No one is just willynilly saying "eh, he's probably good to go." If he reoffends, sure we absolutely need to reevaluate the process, see what could be changed, what went wrong, if there was any negligence etc. But what in the case that he doesn't reoffend? What if this is the case of a man who is remorseful for the actions he had no control over, who is mentally stable and healthy now and only wants to get back and try to live as close to a normal life as possible and is capable of doing so? What type of sick mentality does it take to deny that?

And just how many other situations would you prefer to rely on a vocal biased uneducated public opinion opposing the neutral experts and doctors? That's how we ended up with worse teeth than Edmonton. Let the doctors decide when he's ready.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by pylon

Very well put, and that pretty much sums up my feelings. Where was the millions of dollars in tax payer funded help for the RCMP officer that committed suicide? Why was that story pretty much ignored by Li's sympathizers? And although I prey it doesn't happen, I would be really interested to see the stance his sympathizers have, if he ditches his meds, and kills again.

Because it's completely irrelevant to the discussion regarding whether he is legally responsible for his actions.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by T@T

Now that he's "fixed" he should be re-charged and convicted of manslaughter and sent to prison not let out like nothing happened.

That is a real bizarre statement. So that he is now not going through a psychotic episode, he should re-charged and eligible to be tried as someone that was not going through a psychotic episode at the time of the event? Even though he was actually going through a psychotic event?
Is that what you are saying?

And could you, using your criteria for recharging people extend that to juveniles? e.g. If a juvenile commits a crime and serves time shouldn't they also then be recharged and retried as an adult once they reach adult age?

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Bagor

That is a real bizarre statement. So that he is now not going through a psychotic episode, he should re-charged and eligible to be tried as someone that was not going through a psychotic episode at the time of the event? Even though he was actually going through a psychotic event?
Is that what you are saying?

And could you, using your criteria for recharging people extend that to juveniles? e.g. If a juvenile commits a crime and serves time shouldn't they also then be recharged and retried as an adult once they reach adult age?

It's pretty difficult to follow T@T's logic on anything, so I wouldn't even bother. In his mind that logic probably actually made sense to him because he shoots from the hip and appears to lacks compassion if he can't empathize.

My favorite was in the American politics thread, despite making some of the most horrifically racist remarks this board has ever seen he stated being racist as a major turn off to him in a presidential candidate.

It was mind blowing, but I bet in his mind racism is only what he perceives to be racism and racism against groups that he is racist against is not racism.

[Dion]

Vince Li wins right to live alone

A Criminal Code Review Board has approved a plan that would allow Vince Li to at some point move out of the group home where he now lives.

Li — who has changed his name to Will Baker — killed Tim McLean during a bus trip along the TransCanada Highway near Portage la Prairie in July 2008.



He was found to be not criminally responsible for the murder due to a mental illness — schizophrenia.

The board reviews Baker's file annually and has ruled that he could move out on his own following an updated assessment report that would include conditions for living in the community.

Even living on his own, he would be subject to several conditions that would include daily monitoring, regular check-ins with mental health professionals and random drug tests.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/02...n_9321924.html

[Johnny199r]

I worked with the guy who defended Vince Li in his court proceedings. The not criminally responsible aspect was beyond open and shut as is this criminal review board stuff. There's a system in place and it's doing what it is supposed to do.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by jayswin

It's pretty difficult to follow T@T's logic on anything, so I wouldn't even bother. In his mind that logic probably actually made sense to him because he shoots from the hip and appears to lacks compassion if he can't empathize.

My favorite was in the American politics thread, despite making some of the most horrifically racist remarks this board has ever seen he stated being racist as a major turn off to him in a presidential candidate.

It was mind blowing, but I bet in his mind racism is only what he perceives to be racism and racism against groups that he is racist against is not racism.

Please post even one of these horrific racist remarks, if you don't mind attacking me personally you shouldn't mind backing it up.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Dion

Vince Li wins right to live alone





http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2016/02...n_9321924.html

This is probably the best outcome, and that last quote should ease the fears of some in this thread, although I suspect some were using fears as a cover for not wanting him to have the freedom to live a life.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by T@T

Please post even one of these horrific racist remarks, if you don't mind attacking me personally you shouldn't mind backing it up.

Geez, you've had so many, I'll guess I'll go through tomorrow and find a couple. You do realize that you're incredibly racist towards Muslims quite frequently, right?