[PGT] Kings 2, Flames 1 - Monahan 1G, Gaudreau 1A, Ortio with 35 Saves

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

I don't get all the hatred for Colborne. Sure he's not the best player on the team, but he's great value for his contact. If he was getting paid like Jones, I'd be all over him. But he's not. He doesn't even make 1.3 mil. If Raymond was making <1.3 and had the same amount of points, would people complain about him like they do now?

I have a feeling the same posters with a hate-on for Colborne are the same people who look at an overpaid player on another team (Phaneuf for example) and trot out the ''he's not a bad player, he's just overpaid'' line. But you cannot even say Colborne is overpaid. For <1.3 mil, there is not much to complain about with him, other then you take it personally that he's not the player you want him to be. Especially if he scores over 30 pts, which he is on pace to do. Jones doesn't even get 1/4 of the hate Colborne gets. And Jones plain sucks.

It's not Colborne's play out value that is the problem. Strawman here. It's the usage that is atrocious. He's a 3rd/mostly 4th line shootout specialist. He's paid like that and if the coach used him like that we'd all be fine

[Enoch Root]

Regarding whether to have Colborne or Ferland out there as the extra attacker...

It has little to do with who is the better offensive player, and more to do with their style of play and role for the situation.

Colborne likes to have the puck on his stick and look for a play. Unfortunately, he just can't make quick decisions in that regard. He is closer to the Raymond end of the spectrum than the Gaudreau end, in that respect. As a result, plays die on his stick when they should have been on someone else's stick in the first place.

Ferland, on the other hand, understands that his role in that situation is to get to the front of the net. That is what the team needs, and that is what Ferland is good at. He can also help forecheck to gain possession prior to going to the net.

Ironically, Colborne is also excellent when in front - he is a big body and has soft hands. He is an excellent net-front tipper. Unfortunately, he tries to be other things. He tries to be a playmaker, and he just shouldn't be the playmaker in those situations.

So I'll take Ferland every time.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by saillias

I don't know about the overall picture but I am worried about Monahan & Hamilton. Both have been something of a one-trick offense pony this year. The rest of their game ranges from meh to awful. If they are core pieces going forward, they need to get a lot better at everything that isn't offense

PS If you get all defensive and respond to this that they are 21 and 22 I will kick a puppy.

Alright then, how about:

Monahan has been doing much of the heavy lifting himself. Backlund has started to chip in and does the brunt of the defensive work, but Monahan is getting the toughest assignments almost every night. He has the 2nd most ice time out of any of our forwards, he take the most draws. Age aside, the fact that he's managed to chip in 40 points(probably finishing on around 50-55) is to his credit. Bennett hopefully over the next 2 years will start to take some of the burden off Monahan, which should help.

As for Hamilton, he's had pretty poor defensive partners all season. He had Gio when Gio was terrible, had Engellend when he got demoted to the 3rd pairing, now he's stuck with either Russell or Engellend again. Get him a decent partner to play with who's advanced stats aren't terrible and then see what he does.

End of the day, with the way things are shaping up, neither look like they will be our main guys going forward. When we start to get legitimate concerns about Bennett, Gaudreau and Brodie, then I'll start to worry.

[jaginla]

Not sure if posted, but the Leah Hextall bit ripping the Oilers.

https://twitter.com/flamesguy89/stat...66147811872768

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

It's not Colborne's play out value that is the problem. Strawman here. It's the usage that is atrocious. He's a 3rd/mostly 4th line shootout specialist. He's paid like that and if the coach used him like that we'd all be fine

Blame the coach then. I also hate seeing Colborne in the top 6, but that's not his fault. What's he supposed to say? "Sorry coach, I'm not good enough for the PP. Please put someone else out". Hartley send him out, he goes out. No player is going to turn down extra icetime or PP time.

It also doesn't help that we don't have that many option up front. Scoring by committee seems to have disappeared this year and we're stuck with garbage that rotates in and out of our top 6.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Blame the coach then. I also hate seeing Colborne in the top 6, but that's not his fault. What's he supposed to say? "Sorry coach, I'm not good enough for the PP. Please put someone else out". Hartley send him out, he goes out. No player is going to turn down extra icetime or PP time.

The coach is putting him in positions to fail. I do blame the coach

[polak]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Ironically, Colborne is also excellent when in front - he is a big body and has soft hands. He is an excellent net-front tipper. Unfortunately, he tries to be other things. He tries to be a playmaker, and he just shouldn't be the playmaker in those situations.

This is all on the coach if you ask me. A good coach should put his players in the position where they're most effective. So either Hartley thinks Colborne is better as a soft perimeter player that can't keep up with the game or he is actually telling Colborne to get in front of the net and start using that body and Colborne has tuned him out.

Either way....

[saillias]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Alright then, how about:

Monahan has been doing much of the heavy lifting himself. Backlund has started to chip in and does the brunt of the defensive work, but Monahan is getting the toughest assignments almost every night. He has the 2nd most ice time out of any of our forwards, he take the most draws. Age aside, the fact that he's managed to chip in 40 points(probably finishing on around 50-55) is to his credit. Bennett hopefully over the next 2 years will start to take some of the burden off Monahan, which should help.

As for Hamilton, he's had pretty poor defensive partners all season. He had Gio when Gio was terrible, had Engellend when he got demoted to the 3rd pairing, now he's stuck with either Russell or Engellend again. Get him a decent partner to play with who's advanced stats aren't terrible and then see what he does.

End of the day, with the way things are shaping up, neither look like they will be our main guys going forward. When we start to get legitimate concerns about Bennett, Gaudreau and Brodie, then I'll start to worry.

good points all around no disagreement here.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by jaginla

Not sure if posted, but the Leah Hextall bit ripping the Oilers.

https://twitter.com/flamesguy89/stat...66147811872768

A comment from the article...

"Clearly she doesn't understand words like "professionalism""

Oh the ironing!

[Roof-Daddy]

Colborne hasn't taken the next step like I'd hoped he would, but he's still a decent 3rd line utility guy, producing decent numbers for his role and price tag.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The coach is putting him in positions to fail. I do blame the coach

To be fair what positions would Colborne succeed in? I do agree that he's being misused but his use is non existent in the NHL. He can't play top 6 and is way too soft for the bottom 6. The rarity of shootouts these days also makes him not as valuable in that department either.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by calgaryblood

To be fair what positions would Colborne succeed in? I do agree that he's being misused but his use is non existent in the NHL. He can't play top 6 and is way too soft for the bottom 6. The rarity of shootouts these days also makes him not as valuable in that department either.

No, he's a productive 5v5 on grinding lines (3/more 4). He's great in a limited role. It's Hartley's insistence on Colborne's net front presence that gets me riled up. Hudler does better in front of the net

[northcrunk]

Is there a need for any shoot out specialist on this team anymore? We don't really need one with Johnny dominating 3 on 3 OT.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Is there a need for any shoot out specialist on this team anymore? We don't really need one with Johnny dominating 3 on 3 OT.

They went to a SO last time they tied. Guess who scored?

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

They went to a SO last time they tied. Guess who scored?

3 times this season we have lost in a SO. Not a lot.

[JJ1532]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

3 times this season we have lost in a SO. Not a lot.

Minor correction, but I count 2. Lost to Edmonton and Ottawa, beat Dallas and San Jose. So, gone to a SO 4 times this season, compared to 7 times last season(4-3 record). What will our SO total end up as come the end of the year? 5? 6? Not much less than last season tbf. Colborne has a 50% record in his time with us(8 for 16 in the last 2 and a half seasons).

Not sure how that translates across the league and whether 50% makes him a SO specialist. I don't think it hurts to have someone that is pretty reliable in a SO. Still, I'd like to see Monahan, Gaudreau and Bennett as my first 3, then Colborne at 4 if needed.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The coach is putting him in positions to fail. I do blame the coach

A lot of the problem just boils down to lack of forward depth. Once you get past Monahan/Gaudreau/Bennett/Hudler/Backlund, there isn't really any good options on the PP (Frolik hasn't had more than 10 PP points since 2010).

At even strength - you're still short a guy after adding Frolik if Bennett is playing centre. And Frolik was hurt for the past while while Bennett was on the wing.

You've got to put someone out there.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by JJ1532

Minor correction, but I count 2. Lost to Edmonton and Ottawa, beat Dallas and San Jose. So, gone to a SO 4 times this season, compared to 7 times last season(4-3 record). What will our SO total end up as come the end of the year? 5? 6? Not much less than last season tbf. Colborne has a 50% record in his time with us(8 for 16 in the last 2 and a half seasons).

Not sure how that translates across the league and whether 50% makes him a SO specialist. I don't think it hurts to have someone that is pretty reliable in a SO. Still, I'd like to see Monahan, Gaudreau and Bennett as my first 3, then Colborne at 4 if needed.

Colborne has the 15th best shootout percentage among all active players who have taken at least 10 shootout attempts (out of 199 players who meet those criteria). Monahan is 20th.

Colborne is 3 for 3 this season. The one shootout he didn't participate in was the game in Edmonton because he wasn't dressed for that game (and the Flames lost the shootout).

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Colborne has value beyond the shootout. He isn't Lucic, but he isn't overpaid, and seems like a good team guy. To me the criticism is unwarranted for the most part. Perhaps a function of the expectation that he really could be awesome. He isn't, but he does show flashes from time to time.
I thought he looked pretty good against LA (as did Jooris). For me, he deserved some PP time on that basis.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

I don't get all the hatred for Colborne. Sure he's not the best player on the team, but he's great value for his contact. If he was getting paid like Jones, I'd be all over him. But he's not. He doesn't even make 1.3 mil. If Raymond was making <1.3 and had the same amount of points, would people complain about him like they do now?

I have a feeling the same posters with a hate-on for Colborne are the same people who look at an overpaid player on another team (Phaneuf for example) and trot out the ''he's not a bad player, he's just overpaid'' line. But you cannot even say Colborne is overpaid. For <1.3 mil, there is not much to complain about with him, other then you take it personally that he's not the player you want him to be. Especially if he scores over 30 pts, which he is on pace to do. Jones doesn't even get 1/4 of the hate Colborne gets. And Jones plain sucks.

Just curious and honest question. Does it matter if Colborne is making $1 million or $5 million? I don't judge players on their salary, I don't write their cheques. Colborne at $1 dollar would still frustrate me the same as Colborne making $5million.

Why is salary relevant unless you're the one cutting his cheque or you're a GM trying to fit under the cap? As of right now we are under the cap so his salary to fans should be irrelevant.

He is frustrating to watch at any price tag.