Penalties... Coincidence or Conspiracy

[Samonadreau]

Call it what you want - a conspiracy, a coincidence... but the flames have piles of penalties since the Wideman incident. I rolled my eyes until tonight against the kings. What is going on?

Conspiracy being anything non-coincidence.

[TheScorpion]

My brain says coincidence.
My heart says conspiracy.

[Gaudfather]

Refs will never admit it, but they know how to make a team pay.

[Mathgod]

Neither. There is no formal conspiracy, just a general feeling that they aren't happy with the Flames.

[corporatejay]

Probably aren't getting the benefit of the doubt but I don't think it's a conspiracy.

[MarkGio]

I think all reffing is a management of a multi billion dollar enterprise. We know refs manage the "atmosphere", so why should we ignore franchise struggles, parity, franchises that paid relocation fees, franchises that endoured being in the Western conference for so long, and other aspects of the game.

With today's technology I cant see why we need people on the ice making judgement calls. It's obviously to create an emotion and control, but have a person or union take the blame.

[Samonadreau]

Call it what you want. .... personal vendettas/conspiracy the refs seem to be calling it consistantly against the flames. Im sure they arent having secret meetings to conspire but the flames are getting the short end of the stick in every game.

[Cortez]

I wouldn't say conspiracy- but I know in my line of work, If there's a co-worker I don't like, or a supplier that has rubbed me the wrong way, I most definitely treat them differently then the one's I like.

It's not a stretch at all to think the same happens with refs.

[CaptainCrunch]

I don't think its intentional, I think its just what it is, the normal breaks the refs give out, they're not giving them to the Flames right now. Especially with Henderson still on the shelf.

[Redrum]

Just a very big coincidence. I don't think it's as close to conspiracy as it was in those ridiculous SJ and ARI games. It's not the insanely weak penalties against the Flames that bothered me that much. But those teams could've murdered a busload of kids at center ice without the refs batting an eye. After those two games I don't even notice the refs pinching one off on the Flames' heads.

[driveway]

Here's what I posted in the gamthread, breaking down the numbers. This data does not include the game we just finished vs. LAK.

According to NHL.com, the Flames have the lowest time on the PK of any team in the NHL at 237:53 in 58 games or 4:06 per game. This includes the last month, since Wideman's hit on the linesman.

Here's our Shorthanded TOI for each game since.
vs CAR - 10:00
vs CBJ - 0:00
@ VAN - 2:00
vs TOR - 4:32
@ SJS - 11:32
@ ARI - 6:54
vs ANA - 1:42
vs MIN - 4:30
vs VAN - 4:00
@ ANA - 5:41

That's 50:51 SH TOI in 10 games or 5:05/game, basically a minute over our season average (which includes these 10 games). This is a 25% increase in SH TOI over our season average. Prior to Wideman's hit we had 187:02 SH TOI in 48 games which is 3:54/Game. That extra 1:09 is a 30% increase in our SH TOI per game, since Wideman hit the linesman.

If this 5:05/game trend were carried over a whole season. we'd be around the 17th most penalized team, instead of the 30th.

We'll see how the rest of the season plays out, but if that 5:05 average holds to the end of the year, it would be borderline impossible to convince me it wasn't the refs calling us tougher as a result of Wideman's actions.

[Samonadreau]

Originally Posted by driveway

Here's what I posted in the gamthread, breaking down the numbers. This data does not include the game we just finished vs. LAK.

According to NHL.com, the Flames have the lowest time on the PK of any team in the NHL at 237:53 in 58 games or 4:06 per game. This includes the last month, since Wideman's hit on the linesman.

Here's our Shorthanded TOI for each game since.
vs CAR - 10:00
vs CBJ - 0:00
@ VAN - 2:00
vs TOR - 4:32
@ SJS - 11:32
@ ARI - 6:54
vs ANA - 1:42
vs MIN - 4:30
vs VAN - 4:00
@ ANA - 5:41

That's 50:51 SH TOI in 10 games or 5:05/game, basically a minute over our season average (which includes these 10 games). This is a 25% increase in SH TOI over our season average. Prior to Wideman's hit we had 187:02 SH TOI in 48 games which is 3:54/Game. That extra 1:09 is a 30% increase in our SH TOI per game, since Wideman hit the linesman.

If this 5:05/game trend were carried over a whole season. we'd be around the 17th most penalized team, instead of the 30th.

We'll see how the rest of the season plays out, but if that 5:05 average holds to the end of the year, it would be borderline impossible to convince me it wasn't the refs calling us tougher as a result of Wideman's actions.

Not to understate your point, but I wonder how the number of penalties/game before and after would compare to your 1:10 extra pk time. It seams we are giving up a lot of goals against on the pk which could make the SH toi less compared to # of penalties.

[MoBiBu]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

Not to understate your point, but I wonder how the number of penalties/game before and after would compare to your 1:10 extra pk time. It seams we are giving up a lot of goals against on the pk which could make the SH toi less compared to # of penalties.

Flames Penalties Before Wideman Incident
Minor 126 (/ 48 games) = 2.625 / game
Major 13 = 0.271 / game
Misc 3 = 0.063 / game

Flames Penalties After Wideman Incident
Minor 47 (/ 11 games) = 4.27 / game
Major 1 = 0.091 / game
Misc 1 = 0.091 / game

So, minor penalty calls increased by 62% since Wideman.

Figured I'd look to see if the penalties were going up for both teams in Flames' games...

Flames Powerplay Opportunities Before Wideman
77 / 24 GP Home = 3.208 / GP
78 / 24 GP Road = 3.25 / GP

Flames Powerplay Opportunities Before Wideman
20 / 6 GP Home = 3.33 / GP
19 / 5 GP Road = 3.8 / GP

So, only a slight increase (of 3% when the Flames are at home at 16% on the Road)

[N-E-B]

I think it's starting to cool down a bit, but I don't think it was a coincidence. I think CC nailed it on the head. They're not necessarily trying to make the Flames lose, but they're not giving them any breaks that's for sure.

[Chingas]

Originally Posted by Samonadreau

Conspiracy being anything non-coincidence.

By this definition it is a conspiracy imo.

I do think that refs have favorite players/teams etc that they allow to get away with more, up to a point. Everythign is a judgment call and depending on who, what and when it may or may not be called.

I don't think that they are out to get us, but agree with most above that they are not giving us any of the marginal calls either.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by MoBiBu

Flames Penalties Before Wideman Incident
Minor 126 (/ 48 games) = 2.625 / game
Major 13 = 0.271 / game
Misc 3 = 0.063 / game

Flames Penalties After Wideman Incident
Minor 47 (/ 11 games) = 4.27 / game
Major 1 = 0.091 / game
Misc 1 = 0.091 / game

What does it look like if you take out those two games called by Eric Furlatt (San Jose and Arizona)?

The San Jose game was 9 minors against the Flames and 5 against the Sharks. The Arizona game was 10 minors against the Flames and 9 against the Coyotes (3 of each were offsetting).

If you exclude those two games, which are massively out of whack, the count goes from 47 penalties in 11 games to 28 in 9. That drops the average to 3.11 penalties per game, which is a lot closer to the season average.

[Barnet Flame]

I don't think it is a conspiracy nor do I think it is a coincidence. However the bias of individual refs could have been affected as a result of Wideman. It is a natural reaction and I don't think there are many in any profession that arent free of bias.

The Wideman incident was all over the place and pretty much has to be having at least some effect on some refs when it comed to calling the Flames.

[Super-Rye]

I'm going with coincidence.

The Flames have been fairly undisciplined lately. The frustrating part is that other teams are getting away with hooks, holds, and even the occasional running of the goalie. But that's just normal, everyday, crappy NHL reffing for you.

[Split98]

I wouldn't call it a conspiracy, but there certainly does seem to be a tilt towards 'penalize' whenever a Flame is walking the line. At the same time, we see a good amount of those same penalties not called against the opposition. More often than not, the refs are happy to sit a Flame.

That embellishment penalty on Frolik screamed this to me last night. You only get to the conclusion of embellishment on that play if you're searching.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by Cortez

I wouldn't say conspiracy- but I know in my line of work, If there's a co-worker I don't like, or a supplier that has rubbed me the wrong way, I most definitely treat them differently then the one's I like.

It's not a stretch at all to think the same happens with refs.

This.

I don't think there is an active conspiracy, but refs do treat teams differently based on reputation and it can be hard to shake sometimes.

The Flames have always been a better team when it feels like everyone is against them though. Hopefully it builds character for next season.