Official (Alberta) Oil Discussion Thread

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by ranchlandsselling

Calgary 2000 - Heart of the new West
Calgary 2015 - Be a part of the new Energy
Calgary 2016 - "Quebec 2.0".

Yeah, that's a legacy I want to be a part of.

"We wined like Quebec until we got what we wanted"

Well, good luck then. As I mentioned previously, the confederation is a stitch-up - Central Canada has all the power, and the rest of the provinces have to rely on the munificence of the Toronto/Montreal elites. The Americans wisely anticipated this scenario, and created the Senate with equal representation for all the states. We have no recourse but to jump up and down...

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

How important is equity in service provision among provinces to Alberta? What does equity in fiscal capacity of the provinces contribute to stable social, business and political environments which translates to greater wealth? What value is there in providing population floors among provinces to Alberta?

Critically, how did equalization maintain Alberta's population and service delivery when it was a have-not agricultural province and did that gestate investment in the province when oil was discovered?

Again, it's a complex question and not one easily answered through gritted teeth and the sense of victimhood of having to pay for those undeserving others.

Tinordi, I would suggest that very few (educated) people are honestly saying "Eff you other provinces for taking our money"*** and demanding we get higher level of services since we're rich these past few decades. It's more "Eff you other provinces for not recognizing that the massive net benefit we provide to this nation came from pipelines and now you're trying to block new pipelines which will keep that gravy train going (or even extort us for them)."

I get it, we contribute a crapload more than everyone else right now. That's a good thing. Complaining about that is kind of like complaining about paying more taxes. It means you make more freakin money.

***Yes, I know how equalization works and that we don't actually physically send any money to other provinces but you get the point.

[CaptainCrunch]

Canada isn't Canada anymore, its a confederation with a disinterested concept.

We're not a country as much as a collection of thinly separated fiefdoms.

Lets face facts, this province (alberta) is unimportant to the rest of the country unless we're pumping money to the governments and providing mass employment for provinces with bad economies.

At one point the old saying was that the West wanted a seat at the table, but the Conservatives didn't do a great job of it, and the Liberals seem to see Alberta as an enemy to be squashed. We saw it under Trudeau the Elder, we heard it from Chretien the slimy, Its not like Trudeau has been the biggest cheerleader for this province ever, and he came out here and blathered some things, went back to Ontario and the only action we've seen is the minimal action.

We won't see any backing for pipelines by this federal government, I'm even willing to be that they'll over ride any NEB findings that won't occur til near the end of their term.

We probably won't see any of the requested changes to EI for probably a couple of years as the Liberals decide to study this thing in committees forever.

But they can say that they did something with the money approved by Harper and then the $250,000,000 which in the grand scheme of things is nothing.

But Trudeau will cling to his heroic message of I did something nice to the West.

But you wait and see how fast that check gets to Bombardier.

We don't have enough votes, and we don't like the Liberals enough.

And we have a Prime Minister who's father was a vindictive son of a $$$$$ when it came to the west.

I would never advocate separation.

I would advocate turning things around on the other province and showing any interest in helping them get their goods to this market.

[IliketoPuck]

That $60 per person we are getting is great.

That'll pay for extra meat on my subs for a couple weeks!

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

That $60 per person we are getting is great.

That'll pay for extra meat on my subs for a couple weeks!

Hey now you promised not to piss it away!!

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Hey now you promised not to piss it away!!

You're right. It is RRSP season, I should invest.

Any stock tips?

Bombardier perhaps?

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I would never advocate separation.

I understand the sentiment, believe me I do, even if I don't share it, but how do you get anybody to take you seriously unless you walk that path? We have no poliitical power (votes/seats)...

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

You're right. It is RRSP season, I should invest.

Any stock tips?

Bombardier perhaps?

Well they do have a whole sales department dedicated to getting government bail outs. Soooo that's a solid business model.

I mean for a company that is probably valued at about $3.6 billion with the current share prices, its practically insane that the Quebec Government and Federal Government are going to throw more then $2 billion into that train wreck, and those jobs are still going to go.

I mean this is the latest for Bombardier that included

The almost criminal Iltis Deal.
The F/18 maintenance and repair deal, that was a massive overpayment over I think Bristol's offer.
Other bailouts on bad business ventures.

Its a running joke that when Quebec gets a cold the country drops everything to hand it a kleenex.

Right now, what we're seeing is that when Alberta gets a cold, the rest of the country sneers, tells us that it serves us right, and then takes away our cold medicine. And our Prime minister basically hands us one tissue and says, I did something nice for you, now don't waste thing its got to last.


When Justin famously said that Canada belongs to Quebec and they are better at running the country, its just laughable.

But typical

[GGG]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

I understand the sentiment, believe me I do, even if I don't share it, but how do you get anybody to take you seriously unless you walk that path? We have no poliitical power (votes/seats)...

We have no political power because we vote like idiots.

If we swung from Liberal to Conservative to Separtist based on who paid us the most we would have a lot more power. Parties would build their base elsewhere and then bribe us with swing money.

Instead we vote for parties who know we will support them and then they buy votes in other parts of the country. Our lack of power is mainly self inflicted.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by GGG

We have no political power because we vote like idiots.

If we swung from Liberal to Conservative to Separtist based on who paid us the most we would have a lot more power. Parties would build their base elsewhere and then bribe us with swing money.

Instead we vote for parties who know we will support them and then they buy votes in other parts of the country. Our lack of power is mainly self inflicted.

Well, theoretically, our "swing" votes only matter when Ontario and Quebec back different horses. The Bloc and the NDP aberration was upsetting, but things are back to the usual now.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Well, theoretically, our "swing" votes only matter when Ontario and Quebec back different horses. The Bloc and the NDP aberration was upsetting, but things are back to the usual now.

Yep, best to double down on the philosophy that got things to where they are.

"The West Wants In" etc etc

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Yep, best to double down on the philosophy that got things to where they are.

"The West Wants In" etc etc

How did you get that from my post? Absolutely not. Outright separatism - has to be a credible threat.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GGG

We have no political power because we vote like idiots.

If we swung from Liberal to Conservative to Separtist based on who paid us the most we would have a lot more power. Parties would build their base elsewhere and then bribe us with swing money.

Instead we vote for parties who know we will support them and then they buy votes in other parts of the country. Our lack of power is mainly self inflicted.

I'd like to add on though that the vote like idiots thing that you stated is silly to the extreme. We vote with what resonates with us, or are you saying that we should vote strategically and then hope that the Federal government rewards us like begging puppies.

Our of all of the parties which one has been most vindictive in terms of how it deals with this province? They give very little reason to trust them.

The Liberals under Trudeau were incredibly cancerous and vindictive.

The Liberals under Chretien didn't change that (remember when Calgary didn't vote for the Liberals and they suddenly pulled the Military Base out of Calgary and decimated whole areas of this city and rewarded their few Edmonton MPs?

Then Dion ran with his green shift which was really a wealth transfer from this Province to more loyal areas of the country.

You can call it voting stupid which I find is offensive as all hell, but what the hell have the Liberals ever done to honestly be given the benefit of the doubt.

Even the Conservatives did precious little for this province, but they didn't outright punish it.

Frankly until Trudeau the younger actually does something beyond the minimum nothing is going to change here. If he wants to get the votes here then he's going to actually have to go against a lot of his personal philosophies and step up in a big way to support the energy sector.

But it doesn't matter.

Personally, I do like the idea of a toll card, its issued to Alberta transport drivers and it means free access to the main transport routes. But if you come through from another province you pay a toll based on weight.

Tax all out of province products that sit on our store shelves where the companies don't have an Alberta presence (That's where Ceci got in trouble with his attempted beer tax, was that the Quebec beer had Alberta manufacturing. Encourage and incentivize Alberta Companies to replace products coming from other provinces, this would slightly diversify our economy.

Illegal, maybe but its no different then Quebec and BC demanding cash for pipelines through their territories, just consider Alberta roads to be their pipelines to markets.

If BC wants to ship products by rail across our territory we need to form a committee to study how dangerous it is to send these products across and that process could take years.

[Fuzz]

I wonder if we could trick the government into paying for the pipeline if we convinced them to use Bombardier fuselages...

[Locke]

The thing for me, especially with something like Bombardier, is that why does the Government continue bailing them out?

If its constantly an issue then just Nationalize them. We're talking about socialist policy, so lets either fish or cut bait, why are we half-assing this?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Locke

The thing for me, especially with something like Bombardier, is that why does the Government continue bailing them out?

If its constantly an issue then just Nationalize them. We're talking about socialist policy, so lets either fish or cut bait, why are we half-assing this?

Votes and interpretation, its why Businesses in Quebec aren't allowed to fail. Its why poorly run companies like Air Canada run to the government, because they know that if the Government says no, the buggabo of Quebec Seperation will rise.

Similar to the auto industry bailouts in Ontario, Instead of doing the right thing and letting the industry clean itself up, or let a dying industry die, they looked at the voter pie charts and wrote a check.

I don't want the Federal Government to bail out specific Oil Companies for example it makes no sense.

But doing things like an emergency extending of EI, providing more money for jobs simulation or incentivizing organizations to hire just makes sense through things like Infrastructure, as long as you don't go overly nuts on the money that's sent.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I wonder if we could trick the government into paying for the pipeline if we convinced them to use Bombardier fuselages...

It's going to have a lot of holes in it...

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Locke

The thing for me, especially with something like Bombardier, is that why does the Government continue bailing them out?

If its constantly an issue then just Nationalize them. We're talking about socialist policy, so lets either fish or cut bait, why are we half-assing this?

Nationalize them, the last thing the government should do is run companies, they're barely competent enough to run a province or a city or a country.

If you nationalize Bombardier it becomes a make work project with 10x the employees, no incentive to make a profit, and it suddenly can't design a jet that doesn't cost a billion bucks a copy and can't compete on the world scale so the government blows a bunch of cash buying them.

If a business can't fix itself, look at its model and adjust it, then its time for it to die.

One of the big shareholder concerns with Bombardier is that outside of Air Canada buying some, their jets aren't cost competitive and they have no sales in the pipeline because other companies can do it better and cheaper then they can.

That's not viable.

[polak]

You guys want to separate and become a landlocked state with zero means of independently getting our products to the coast?

That seems backwards? Unless we can take BC or Sask and MB with us, separation seems like a bad idea.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

How did you get that from my post? Absolutely not. Outright separatism - has to be a credible threat.

It's not really credible anyway because of the unfortunate fact of Alberta being land locked. So it's not separation that can be used as a credible threat, it's joining the US that is a threat that can be credible. And even that's obviously a stretch too, but more credible as a threat.