[Trade] Markus Granlund to Van for Shinkaruk

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Should teenagers be beyond criticism or something?

Depends on the criticism. In this case, it seemed a bit personal, and character based, not criticism about his play.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

One thing that tempers my excitement is the fact the Canucks have been actively trying to trade Shinkaruk for a year. As an aside, it's a bit of a dick move for Benning to publicly announce that they've been shopping him all this time and to take shots at his skill set on the way out the door.

The Wiesbroad factor could be at play here. He clearly didn't like Hunter. Pretty much everyone wanted the Flames to draft him with the Porier pick and because he was a Canuck the hate began.

Wiesbroad clearly didn't like the kid and shortly after he joined the organization he is traded.

What I see is a highly touted prospect that slipped in the draft. He was injured in his draft +1 year and adjusting to the pro game since. He took a big step in his second year and started scoring goals. Flames bought low hoping he hits his potential but the cost was a fringe NHLer they could have lost on waivers if he was outplayed by the several centers in the organization.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

One thing that tempers my excitement is the fact the Canucks have been actively trying to trade Shinkaruk for a year. As an aside, it's a bit of a dick move for Benning to publicly announce that they've been shopping him all this time and to take shots at his skill set on the way out the door.

Based on what Benning said, they were asking for the wrong price - an NHL defenceman. Shinkaruk doesn't get you any decent defenceman, nor any defenceman roughly Granlund's equivalent. He gets you a tweener forward who is waiver eligible next year, from a team with plenty of centres.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

One thing that tempers my excitement is the fact the Canucks have been actively trying to trade Shinkaruk for a year.

Yeah but there are factors we have to consider here. Both teams have new management teams - it's actually been a while since Feaster/Weisbrod and Gillis/Gilman were fired. Shinkaruk was a pick of the old regime ... and now Weisbrod is their AGM. Weisbrod and co apparently didn't fancy Shinkaruk back then (IIRC they only invited Monahan, Poirier, Klimchuk and Petan to Calgary pre-draft) - if he's as influential there as he was in Calgary, it's conceivable that they've listened to him and tried to move Shinkaruk as a result. Also they traded for Baertschi, who was a Feaster pick (Weisbrod was still at Boston at the 2011 draft, but he surely seemed to like Sven as a prospect) ... if they thought it was either Sven or Shinkaruk and if Weisbrod was involved, it's not that surprising.

Also someone has already mentioned Washington giving up on Forsberg ... sometimes teams screw up when it comes to prospect evaluation. Let's hope Vancouver screwed up here.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

He's played 80 NHL games and has looked like crap unless he's on the PK (league worst PK btw). There is no room in the NHL for pk specialists who can't drive possession, score, cycle or be physical.

Well that's assuming Granlund is WYSIWYG. At age 22 it's highly unlikely he's peaked. Reasonable to assume he can and will continue to develop and get better. Confidence could be key for him, a couple goals and he may suddenly be more of a scorer or possession driver.

[Tinordi]

The Erixon dividend keeps paying out.

[dino7c]

Not sure how any Flames fan can not like this...traded a guy that might be our 4th line center who is RFA for a former first rounder having a good year in the AHL and on year one of his entry level deal. From the Flames side you do this deal 10 times out of 10. Not much to lose and a ton to gain.

[Bingo]

Wow that took a lot of reading ...

I'd only be reiterating what every one said, so I'll add this.

To me Granlund was about to become Calgary's Joe Colborne from a Toronto perspective. The plan all along was to get Bennett to center and with the season lost they made that move and then poof no spot for Granlund.

That wasn't going to change going into next season.

Monahan will be back.
Bennett will be back.
I really like Backlund's game and I'm guessing they do too.
Stajan is tough to move and they like him in the room.

Add in Jankowski turning pro, Arnold, maybe Grant back and things get very tight up the middle.

With Granlund waiver eligible I could see the team up against it on October 5th and dealing him in the best deal available.

That deal wouldn't fetch them another team's first round pick from 2013.

This takes the pressure off the Flames and puts it firmly on the Canucks, as the Baertschi deal did. That worked for Vancouver, a tough start where he should have been demoted but wasn't has seen Baertschi somewhat productive.

Now with Sedin, Horvat, Sutter, McCann, McVey down the middle they have to shoe horn Granlund in or he gets lost too. Other option is move him to the wing but Treliving said yesterday they tried that in the AHL and it didn't work.

Shinkaruk still has issues for me. Hated his interview stuff leading up to the draft, and heard from many that he was a guy that developed early and then will stop growing and get passed by his peers. His season in the AHL this year gives hope though as he's no longer dominating teen agers.

Either way I see it as great asset management, and a very interesting flier.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by polak

Yeah I think people saying Granlund has "proven" anything in the NHL are jumping the gun.

He's the only Flames forward prospect to make it to the show this year. He was playing on the team two days ago, and a highly-paid veteran is down in the minors. Spin it however you like, Granlund cracked an NHL lineup. Shinkaruk hasn't. If you want to call Granlund's floor a tweener who bounces between the NHL and the minors, then fine. Shinkaruk's floor isn't even that, as he's far from a blue chip prospect, and Treliving himself calls him a project.

I'm okay with the trade. And I agree that Shinkaruk has more upside. I'm simply pointing out the blindingly obvious fact that Granlund has shown that his floor is an NHLer (even if a fringe one) and Shinkaruk hasn't.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Well that's assuming Granlund is WYSIWYG. At age 22 it's highly unlikely he's peaked. Reasonable to assume he can and will continue to develop and get better. Confidence could be key for him, a couple goals and he may suddenly be more of a scorer or possession driver.

Don't you get it? Now that he's no longer a Flame, at 22 Granlund is a fringe NHLer who is as good as he'll ever get. While players like Ferland (23), Arnold (23), Jankowski (21), and Poirier (21) are still learning the game, and it's far too soon to make any judgement calls about their full NHL potential.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by New Era

See success of Anaheim and Los Angeles versus the success of Calgary. Your wife may be telling you otherwise, but size does matter. The Flames get physically dominated because they are too small and too soft. Flames need some guys in the lineup that are tough to play against and wear the opposition down. Granlund didn't play that way so he's moved. Your fancy stats only tell 1/10th of the story of a hockey game.

And Chicago is one of the smaller teams in the league and they seem to do fine.

If you can get a team full of Gaudreau's, you'll be better off than a team with 'textbook' line 1/2 - skill, line 3/4 - big checkers.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

He's the only Flames forward prospect to make it to the show this year. He was playing on the team two days ago, and a highly-paid veteran is down in the minors. Spin it however you like, Granlund cracked an NHL lineup. Shinkaruk hasn't. If you want to call Granlund's floor a tweener who bounces between the NHL and the minors, then fine. Shinkaruk's floor isn't even that, as he's far from a blue chip prospect, and Treliving himself calls him a project.

I'm okay with the trade. And I agree that Shinkaruk has more upside. I'm simply pointing out the blindingly obvious fact that Granlund has shown that his floor is an NHLer (even if a fringe one) and Shinkaruk hasn't.



Don't you get it? Now that he's no longer a Flame, at 22 Granlund is a fringe NHLer who is as good as he'll ever get. While players like Ferland (23), Arnold (23), Jankowski (21), and Poirier (21) are still learning the game, and it's far too soon to make any judgement calls about their full NHL potential.

He could still develop into something, but at this point he's a borderline NHLer. This is a team that had Brandon Bollig and Mason Raymond on it up until a few weeks ago. Its not exactly loading with depth. If he was on any of the playoff teams - very unlikely he's in the NHL.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Red Menace

I would rank the Forwards:
Shinkaruk, Poirier, Jankowski, Mangiapane, Klimchuk
DEF:
Kylington, Hickey, Andersson, Kulak, Ollas-Mattsson
G:
Gillies, Ortio, McDonald

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Agreed. Until we draft Laine or Puljujarvi, as it stands Shinkaruk is now our best forward prospect

I would take Poirier all day - bigger, faster, more physical. Just a better NHL tool set.

As for talent, they are very even. Poirier had a better year last year and Shinkaruk has had a better year this year. Personally, I don't get too worked up about short-term fluctuations, progression isn't linear.

So I'll go back to the fact that Poirier has more NHL tools, with similar top 6 upside.

Poirier, then Shinkaruk.

Jankowski has to be behind them until such time that he is actually in the organization and can show under direct comparison that he deserves to be ranked higher.

Mangiapane has the potential to pass them all at some point.

[Huntingwhale]

What's up with Shinkaruk's contract? I read that he has one of those rare 4 year ELC. How was this possible? Why don't more teams do it, as it appears to give them more flexibility?

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

He's the only Flames forward prospect to make it to the show this year.

Not sure what this means given Ferland and Bennett are regulars, and Grant played a few games as well.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

What's up with Shinkaruk's contract? I read that he has one of those rare 4 year ELC. How was this possible? Why don't more teams do it, as it appears to give them more flexibility?

Teams can't just "do" that ... it's a combination of an early birthday and the date of when you're signing the ELC. It's similar to Poirier and Sieloff - they turned 20 before Dec 31 in the second year after being drafted, so they were AHL eligible a year early and their ELC slided despite them playing in the AHL. Same with Shinkaruk.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

What's up with Shinkaruk's contract? I read that he has one of those rare 4 year ELC. How was this possible? Why don't more teams do it, as it appears to give them more flexibility?

He doesn't have a rare four year ELC but due to his birthdate his ELC slid a year, just like Emile Poirier's. Right now both are in year one.

Kylington's doesn't count either this year, or next. NHL games played pending of course.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

What's up with Shinkaruk's contract? I read that he has one of those rare 4 year ELC. How was this possible? Why don't more teams do it, as it appears to give them more flexibility?

Its based on being a late birthday when drafted. Basically just allows a team to hold off on the ELC started for 2 years - same as the early birthday picks - but the late birthday guy can spend age 20 in the AHL.

Early Birthday
Drafted at 17/18
18 year old season - Draft + 1 - Junior - ELC shifts forward
19 year old season - Draft + 2 - junior - ELC shifts forward

Late Birthday
Drafted at 18
19 year old season - Draft + 1 - Junior - ELC Shifts forward
20 year old season - Draft + 2 - Junior/AHL - ELC Shifts forward

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

And Chicago is one of the smaller teams in the league and they seem to do fine.

If you can get a team full of Gaudreau's, you'll be better off than a team with 'textbook' line 1/2 - skill, line 3/4 - big checkers.

Chicago has some of the best players in the game. If you can vastly out talent a team then size isn't as important. Not sure the Flames will ever be top 5 in the league in terms of pure talent.

The new textbook is line 1/2 - skill, size, skating and strength, line 3/4 size, skating, strength and less skill. In the playoffs size and strength wear down and take a toll on smaller teams. The best teams in the league (Chicago) may be able to survive with average size but the only hope we have of getting out of our huge/skilled division is to add some more size.

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

What's up with Shinkaruk's contract? I read that he has one of those rare 4 year ELC. How was this possible? Why don't more teams do it, as it appears to give them more flexibility?

It is called Entry level slide.

Basically if a 18 or 19 year old doesn't play 10 NHL games his ELC is extended another year.

Emile Poirier's contract will do the same thing.

[Hack&Lube]

#Flames Shinkaruk: "When you get a chance to play for the team you grew up cheering for, it’s a pretty amazing feeling."

Shinkaruk: It's my hometown, Calgary. There's a lot of emotions right now. That's about it



Can't tell how he really feels but I hope he finds success here.