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Old 02-19-2016, 03:31 PM   #381
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Originally Posted by getbak View Post
Any reason why? Past injuries, or other issues?
Keeps getting in the way
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:31 PM   #382
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Any reason why? Past injuries, or other issues?
Probably because he has a habit of getting in players' way!
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:40 PM   #383
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Any reason why? Past injuries, or other issues?
He said they want to push out some of their older members like Cvik or martell

Anyways i guess if he doesn't return tin foil conspirasicts will say he just retired instead of leaving due to concussion
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:53 PM   #384
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Keeps getting in the way
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Originally Posted by Passe La Puck View Post
Probably because he has a habit of getting in players' way!
That's what I was thinking, just wasn't sure if there was something more to it.
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:53 PM   #385
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I've lost a ton of respect for Francis since the Wideman incident. I actually unfollowed him on twitter. I was sick of seeing him take runs at Wideman. I agree that I hope the team shuts him out. It a Shame that good reporter's lost their job, and Francis still has is. Garbage
Wait what? Somebody respected Francis at any point in time?
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Old 02-19-2016, 03:58 PM   #386
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neither of us know the extent of his injuries...he might be hurt still. I highly doubt he would still be out if he had tripped on his own feet like I said earlier that is my opinion. The only thing we have heard from him is "I'm fine" after the game and nothing else. Now we hear some guy say "he is still hurt and might not come back" and that the officials were pressuring him to retire before the incident.

He really didn't go down that hard, I can give you millions of examples of refs taking harder blows that didn't end their careers. Do I know 100% how he is feeling? no but its seems fishy to me.
I respect your right to an opinion. But it seems like your ignoring the facts being reported in order to fit a narrative of your choosing.
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Old 02-19-2016, 04:00 PM   #387
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He certainly can if he views it worse than the league does.
I would certainly argue he cannot based on the wording of the CBA:

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18.13(c) The NDA shall hold an in-person hearing and shall determine whether the final decision of the League regarding whether the Player's conduct violated the League Playing Rules and whether the length of the suspension imposed were supported by substantial evidence. The NDA shall issue an opinion and award as soon as practicable. The NDA shall have the authority to consider any evidence relating to the incident even if such evidence was not available at the time of the initial Supplementary Discipline for On-Ice Conduct decision or at the time of the Commissioner's decision in connection with the appeal. The NDA shall have full remedial authority in respect of the matter should he/she determine that the Commissioner's decision was not supported by substantial evidence. The NDA's decision shall be final and binding in all respects and not subject to review.
If the NDA finds that Bettman's decisions that Wideman broke a rule and the amount of punishment for that broken rule "were supported by substantial evidence" then he dismisses the appeal and Bettman's decision (which is actually defined as the "final decision of the League") stands.

If the NDA finds the decision "was not supported by substantial evidence" THEN he "shall have full remedial authority in respect of the matter".

In other words, his power to impose his own alternative remedy is triggered by finding Bettman's decision not supported by the evidence. Finding the evidence is even worse than Bettman thought would simply confirm the decision was supported. I do not see any wording that would allow him to go higher.
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Old 02-19-2016, 05:29 PM   #388
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Of course it is less likely he would be out if he had "simply tripped on his own two feet", Dino. That is about as useless an argument as it would be to suggest Dennis Wideman would not be suspended if he had just tripped over his own two feet rather than cross check an unsuspecting linesman into the boards from behind.

Want to know another scenario where Henderson would not still be out? If Wideman hadn't hit him in the first place.
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Old 02-19-2016, 10:48 PM   #389
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I respect your right to an opinion. But it seems like your ignoring the facts being reported in order to fit a narrative of your choosing.
What facts are these? statement from some unknown source

The last time a reporter asked the official how he was he said "fine" and nobody has seen him since
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Old 02-19-2016, 11:00 PM   #390
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What facts are these? statement from some unknown source

The last time a reporter asked the official how he was he said "fine" and nobody has seen him since
Which, evidently, means he has not officiated a game since. I think it's safe to assume that is a result of the incident.
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Old 02-19-2016, 11:06 PM   #391
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Which, evidently, means he has not officiated a game since. I think it's safe to assume that is a result of the incident.
or they told him to lay low until all this is over...not saying I blame him or the officials but to me it seems likely
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Old 02-19-2016, 11:18 PM   #392
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Why would they instruct him to "lay low" though? I mean it's not like anyone is blaming Henderson for anything. And if he showed up the first game after the All-Star break, would that really change anything with regards to how we view the intention of Wideman's actions? It's not like Henderson's potential injury had any bearing on Wideman's suspension seeing as he got the minimum amount of games for what the NHL found him guilty of.

The suggestion that the NHLOA is seemingly conspiring against Wideman by hiding Henderson away doesn't make too much sense.

The likely scenario is, because we do know that Henderson was diagnosis with a concussion, is that the concussion symptoms have kept him out of the game.
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Old 02-19-2016, 11:31 PM   #393
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Why would they instruct him to "lay low" though? I mean it's not like anyone is blaming Henderson for anything. And if he showed up the first game after the All-Star break, would that really change anything with regards to how we view the intention of Wideman's actions? It's not like Henderson's potential injury had any bearing on Wideman's suspension seeing as he got the minimum amount of games for what the NHL found him guilty of.

The suggestion that the NHLOA is seemingly conspiring against Wideman by hiding Henderson away doesn't make too much sense.

The likely scenario is, because we do know that Henderson was diagnosis with a concussion, is that the concussion symptoms have kept him out of the game.
come on now...the NOA was/is pissed probably rightly so and wanted Wideman to get the longest suspension possible. Henderson working the next game would certainly work against them.

Wideman was also diagnosed with a concussion and many doubt him
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Old 02-19-2016, 11:46 PM   #394
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Finally got around to reading the document. As it's an appeal, it doesn't do anything to delve into the socalled 'clear and convincing evidence'. Based on the doc, it appears that the one video angle is the only evidence, which as we've seen (and will be discussed below) elicits variable reactions. I'd love to see if the league used any other evidence else to justify it in the original hearing.

I have no life and love playing pretend lawyer, so here are some statements that stood out to me:

Quote:
As discussed in greater detail below, the conclusions expressed by Dr. Comper and Dr. Kutcher were not based on what Mr. Wideman's capacity actually was at the time in question but about what his condition might have been
Which is exactly was Bettman and Campbell's conclusions are based on. Of course the experts have some conflict of interest, but so do Bettman and Campbell (who are not brain surgeons (I know they probably aren't surgeons, but it's a rare time that the term can be effectively used).


Quote:
The trainer's notes provided to Drs. Comper and Kutcher do not contain anything to indicate that Mr. Wideman was confused when he returned to the bench or at any point thereafter. While the trainer's notes statethat Mr. Wideman was "hit in second period, states felt unbalanced going to bench [and] cleared in a few minutes" (Exh. 9), Dr. Kutcher testified that Mr. Wideman was not suffering from motor incoordination at the time he struck Mr. Henderson.
Now that is transcript quote I'd actually like to see. Just as the doctors could not definitively that Wideman's actions were as a result of concussion symptoms, I very much doubt he would/could definitively testify that Wideman was not suffering from motor incoordination. There is in fact a quote from Kutcher in the document that seems to refute this [I]"Dr. Kutcher testified that "t's difficult to make that. . . determination based on the video alone that the motor coordination problem at that time was present. " "

Kutcher is saying that he cannot say that motor coordination was present, but he is certainly not saying that it is not present...I think Bettman is taking liberties here.

Quote:
he realized that he was going to hit Mr. Henderson just before he did so and that he attempted to get out of the way, thus undermining Dr. Kutcher's suggestion that he experienced "situational unawareness.
" (Tr. 220). ' Moreover, after striking Mr. Henderson, Mr. Wideman
continued past the end of the Nashville bench and stepped directly onto Calgary's bench, making clear (again) that he knew exactly where he was. When asked how he squared his conclusion that Mr. Wideman lacked "situational awareness" with Mr. Wideman's statements that he saw, and tried to avoid, the linesman, Dr. Kutcher testified: "I think we' re
discussing a concussed individual and I think they are confused. " (Tr. 221) That reasoning is entirely circular.
This one kills me. Apparently "situational awareness" is a black and white. You're either ready to write the SATs, or you're baking an imaginary cake. This issue is obviously in the grey - I suspect that Wideman was on autopilot skating back to the bench (something he has done thousands of times), but not "situationally aware" enough to react to an unexpected zebra.

When Wideman crosses the blue line is the time it would appear reasonable for him to start anticipating his path crossing with the linesman (based on his head position, and that the linesman has starting moving backwards). It is less than 1.5 seconds before the contact happens. It should be plenty of time to take avoiding action, but maybe not if you're not 100% there.

The other thing that comes to mind is how very rare this situation was to begin with. How often do we see a linesman skating backwards in the opposite direction of a player behind them? It was a bit of a perfect storm (hell, it wouldn't have happened in the 1st or 3rd period without the long change). I would be surprised if there was video evidence of a player way behind the play coming off for a change while the play is now coming right back towards him along the same boards. This doesn't really have anything to do with guilt/innocence, aside from the routine nature of going to the bench for a line change compared to this fluke scenario.


Quote:
In fact, the video
shows Mr. Wideman lifting his stick to cross-check the linesman before he actually made contact. It was not a reflex action caused by impact.
Or more likely he was trying to not pull one of these. Getting your stick vertical before entering the bench is completely routine, and a reasonable 'autopilot' action.


Quote:
Dr. Kutcher limited that observation to "the first two or three strides" and testified that "by the
time he's approaching the blue line, he appears to be skating with more purposeful strides" and,
significantly, with no sign of motor incoordination. ' (9)
To my point above, note the use of quotation vs. paraphrase. The underlined part above is even underlined in the document. I can't imagine why Bettman wouldn't use a direct quote if it existed...

Quote:
(9) During the hearing, the NHLPA introduced evidence that the Calgary concussion spotter log (Exh. 8) shows a notation of "motor incoordination/balance" problems and that the Player should have been removed from the game and evaluated pursuant to the NHL-NHLPA concussion protocol. I make no finding at this time on whether the Club violated the concussion protocol, a question that need not be decided here and that I reserve for another day.
This is a footnote to the previous quote. I'm not sure what Bettman is doing here - trying to use a statement from an expert that he largely discredits to validate his side, therefore discrediting the credibility of concussion spotters? It seems like he just wanted to slip in something about the club and concussion protocol to acknowledge it without much attention. Perhaps another example of different people seeing the same thing differently?

Quote:
I do not agree that there can be "ten different responses" to the video of the incident. However, it is noteworthy that the Player's two experts did not agree with each other about what they saw.
Sure, there probably aren't "ten different responses", but there are at least two (probably more like five to account for various shades of grey).

Quote:
In Dr. Kutcher's words, "[a]ll presentations are different. . ." (Tr. 194) Thus, generalizations about possible or "common" symptoms have little probative value as compared to observations that can be drawn from watching footage of the incident itself.
I know this isn't a courtroom (as much as Bettman (who I must again say I think does a reasonable job on the business side of the sport) may want to swing a gavel), but the experts' testimony would go a long way to showing reasonable doubt.


Quote:
In particular, I do not credit his testimony that he tried to avoid the linesman at the last minute. He did not swerve out of the way
I guess Bettman doesn't want to acknowledge Wideman's shifting feet right before impact. Most, but not all people have acknowledged this, regardless of their particular reaction to the video.


Quote:
He was not wobbly; indeed, he hit the
official with full force and then continued to the Calgary bench.
Just as dazed does not always = concussed, not wobbly does not always equal "fully situationally aware". I fully acknowledge that Wideman used more force than he should have, but claiming 'full force' is absurd. Almost no way Henderson is getting up from a 'full force' shot, and only a 20 game suspension would be equally absurd.


All in all, this document amounts to:
1. The experts were hired by the PA, so they are probably biased
2. There is apparently only one correct way to interpret the video?
3. Look a this text! What a bad dude Wideman is!
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Old 02-20-2016, 12:03 AM   #395
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come on now...the NOA was/is pissed probably rightly so and wanted Wideman to get the longest suspension possible. Henderson working the next game would certainly work against them.
Why would it work against them?

Wideman was suspended for 20 games on February 3, 2016. He was suspended under the frame work of Rule 40.2.

Quote:
40. 2 Automatic Suspension — Category I — Any player who deliberately strikes an
official and causes injury or who deliberately applies physical force in any manner
against an official with intent to injure, or who in any manner attempts to injure an
official shall be automatically suspended for not less than twenty (20) games. (For
the purpose of the rule, "intent to injure" shall mean any physical force which a
player knew or should have known could reasonably be expected to cause injury. )
Seeing as the initial 20 game suspension came down to whether Wideman accidentally or deliberately cross-checked Henderson and the league determined it was deliberate, they gave Wideman the minimum amount of games possible.

Now Bettman could have reduced the suspension, but not even the NHLPA was asking for a reduction in game. They wanted the suspension lifted completely.

By February 3, 2016, it became apparent that Henderson's injury, or lack thereof, would not influence the suspension.

Even in the next appeal, the third-party arbiter will make a determination on whether Wideman's actions were deliberate or if he was in a diminished mental and/or physical state making his actions unintentional. It will not be based on whether Henderson is on the scoresheets or not.

So again, the weird conspiracy theory you are proposing doesn't make sense.
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Old 02-22-2016, 10:14 AM   #396
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So any further news on when the hearing is going to be? I heard Wednesday or Thursday this week. I hope its earlier than that.

Not sure if Wideman could be moved or not prior to this incident, but if the hearing is not until Wednesday / Thursday, it's likely not resolved prior to the trade deadline, and I suspect he wouldn't be in the active trade market. Maybe that is why the NHL was dragging their feet so much?

Still cannot believe how long this is taking. At 10 games out already, the decision of the arbitrator seems to matter less and less as time goes on.
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Old 02-22-2016, 10:27 AM   #397
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Saw a tweet from Frank Servelli (TSN Legal guy) today saying there hasn't been a firm date/time set yet.
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Old 02-22-2016, 04:48 PM   #398
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Darren Dreger @DarrenDreger
Wideman appeal process expected to resume either Wed or Thurs. Details still being finalized.
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Old 02-22-2016, 04:55 PM   #399
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Blows my mind that a player cannot play during an appeal such as this. You would think that the appeal process would have to conclude before anyone knew exactly what the punishment is. What if the arbitrator decides 10 games? Wonder if this will change in the next CBA, it should.
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Old 02-22-2016, 05:02 PM   #400
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Not sure if Wideman could be moved or not prior to this incident
Even if he is reinstated immediately, he is probably as un-trade able a player as there is. Raise your hand for a team going into a playoff run who wants a player who not only attacked a ref, but sent non-remorseful tweets after the fact?

That leaves the non-playoff teams, who will want him for this and next year? No way I see it. Especially with his under performance this year.

Flames best to hope this is all forgotten next year, and Wideman lights it up early in the season. Then dump him and move on. My guess is he will continue to stink up the joint until his is benched for most of next year and his contract expires. Flames should seriously consider a buyout actually or bury the guy, but we'll see.
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