Actually how bad is Hiller?

[Poe969]

Hiller has been terrible but he's not the only reason the Flames aren't in a playoff hunt. The team itself just isn't good enough, or at least not as good as last year. Not only are we not getting enough points from players, the away from the puck play seems to have gone down from most everyone. Maybe players are playing different because they lack confidence in Hiller (who doesn't) but as horrible as he is, he's not he only reason the Flames are bad.

I won't argue if the Flames start him every game until the end of the year at this point.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Psytic

Ortio hasn't earned anything either. Right now Hartley has to pick between dog #### and horse ####. Both are no good. One is a slightly bigger pile because they can't even hack it in the AHL. We all need to start pointing fingers at BT his trades haven't been very good. As I mentioned in another thread we havent managed to develop a goalie in house since Vernon. It's time to get some new goaltending scouts/ development team cause outside of fluking out with Kipper which was Sutter and not our scouts doing, there hasn't been anything of note in 20 years.

I am getting really sick of this argument.

Yes, Ortio hasn't done anything this season to steal the job from a decent goalie.

But we don't have a decent goalie.

Ramo was crap, but was given a bunch of games to work his way out of it and regain his confidence. This is the right way to deal with a struggling goalie, and it worked.

Hiller has struggled and was given ice-time to work it out. He continued to struggle but was given more time. With Ramo hurt, he has been handed the #1 job. He has been given plenty of chances but has completely failed.

Ortio has been poor this season, yes. But he has NOT been given an opportunity to work it out. He showed last year that he is capable of playing at this level. Sometimes you have to give players an opportunity. The fact that Hartley STILL isn't, despite Hiller's play, is now entering spite territory.

Hiller is a 32 year old UFA. Ortio is a prospect.

Yes, Hartley's first job is to win games. But he also has a responsibility as a member of the organization to do what is right for the team long term. Developing young players is part of a coach's job - especially a coach of a rebuilding team.

We are way past 'Ortio hasn't earned it either' at this point. The most sensible strategy for the organization at this point, is to give Ortio a series of games and see if he can regain his confidence and run with it.

If he can, the organization wins. If he can't, they are even, and at least they can make a decision on him moving forward.

But continuing to play Hiller now is destroying team confidence, and burying Ortio.

[icecube]

"But continuing to play Hiller now is destroying team confidence, and burying Ortio"

All the while ensuring us of drafting a sweet, juicy, beautiful, potentially franchise altering top 5 draft pick. It's brilliant and its almost too easy. Hahahahaha.

[CSharp]

He's bad, but not that kind of bad - no wat I mean?

He's so bad that when he gets down on his knees, he's down - that kind'o bad!

I wonder if Brad still says Hiller's his man?

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern2814

OR!!!!!!!!

Jonas Hiller has 400+ NHL games under his belt. If Joni Ortio still can't make a compelling case in practice for him to be put in net, that's not Bob Hartley's fault. It's on Ortio.

This is Irving all over again. No reason Ortio shouldn't be grabbing this opportunity like a 13 year old discovering alone time. That he isn't tells us a lot about Joni.

This can't continue for 25 more games, so I hope we get Murray

Hence it falls under the category of unreasonable attachment towards Hiller. At some point you have to see a sunk cost if you're competent. Ortio is not a sunk cost yet, not after a handful of bad games

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

The problem wasn't with adding guys. It was adding guys with term. As much as it pains me to say it - the Leafs are doing this right. Adding a bunch of guys on one year contracts and then cycling them out at trade deadline. The Flames were stuck with a bunch of unmovable contracts because these guys all got 2 or 3 years.

None of those guys were coming on one year deals...lol the Leafs, worst team in the NHL they must be doing it right

Hiller is done after this season...Raymond is the only real bad contract with one year left

[dissentowner]

Hiller is bad. Real bad. Never going to get another NHL contract bad. He can't track pucks from any kind of distance. He can have a clear view of a lazy floater from the blueline and it will beat him 95% of the time. The only strong part of his game is quick reactions in close. Seeing how those are much more rare than long shots on goal you have a recipe for disaster.

[VladtheImpaler]

Originally Posted by dissentowner

Hiller is bad. Real bad. Never going to get another NHL contract bad. He can't track pucks from any kind of distance. He can have a clear view of a lazy floater from the blueline and it will beat him 95% of the time. The only strong part of his game is quick reactions in close. Seeing how those are much more rare than long shots on goal you have a recipe for disaster.

Maybe he just needs glasses?

[TheAlpineOracle]

The Hiller signing has always had me perplexed from day 1. Ramo was coming off a pretty decent season where he had taken the job from Berra. I thought he he'd be handed the reigns to see what he could do with given it was a complete rebuild. Out of nowhere, Burke goes an signs his old buddy from Anaheim to a pretty hefty contract that the Ducks flat out said they couldn't win a cup with and needed to move on from.

That said, this season is done. They might as well roll Hiller out their every night now. Increases our chances at a top 5 pick. This year Hiller is the biggest stack of garbage i've seen in the NHL in probably a decade. He lets in at least 2 suspect goals a game, his rebound control is garbage, and the team plays ten times better when he isn't starting. Our defence isn't good this year, but they play scared every time Hartley starts Hiller because they know every mistake they make has a good chance of finding the back of the net. I honestly don't know how anyone can defend this guy anymore. He should retire mid-season he's so bad.

[Cube Inmate]

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the opponent's dressing room when they hear Hiller's been named as the starter. He's been so bad this year that I'll bet their players literally cheer when they hear he'll be between the pipes.

"Woohoo! Aim for the corners, boys!"
"I'm gittin' me a hattie tonight!"

I can respect the idea of giving the guy a chance to prove himself in a contract year (a year that's been a write-off for the Flames for the last month)...but I have NEVER seen a guy given so much rope, nor one who's tied such a fine noose for himself with said rope.

[N-E-B]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I am getting really sick of this argument.

Yes, Ortio hasn't done anything this season to steal the job from a decent goalie.

But we don't have a decent goalie.

Ramo was crap, but was given a bunch of games to work his way out of it and regain his confidence. This is the right way to deal with a struggling goalie, and it worked.

Hiller has struggled and was given ice-time to work it out. He continued to struggle but was given more time. With Ramo hurt, he has been handed the #1 job. He has been given plenty of chances but has completely failed.

Ortio has been poor this season, yes. But he has NOT been given an opportunity to work it out. He showed last year that he is capable of playing at this level. Sometimes you have to give players an opportunity. The fact that Hartley STILL isn't, despite Hiller's play, is now entering spite territory.

Hiller is a 32 year old UFA. Ortio is a prospect.

Yes, Hartley's first job is to win games. But he also has a responsibility as a member of the organization to do what is right for the team long term. Developing young players is part of a coach's job - especially a coach of a rebuilding team.

We are way past 'Ortio hasn't earned it either' at this point. The most sensible strategy for the organization at this point, is to give Ortio a series of games and see if he can regain his confidence and run with it.

If he can, the organization wins. If he can't, they are even, and at least they can make a decision on him moving forward.

But continuing to play Hiller now is destroying team confidence, and burying Ortio.

I disagree with this. If Ortio still needs coaches to develop him he shouldn't be in the NHL. The NHL is not a development league. If players aren't able to adapt themselves (such as Monahan, Bennett, Gaudreau) then they should be sent to the AHL where the entire purpose of that league is development. Ortio not playing is a reflection of Ortio, not coaching.

[dino7c]

Ortio's AHL numbers are just as bad as Hiller's NHL numbers this year

team is looking for new goalies...really it doesn't matter who plays at this point

[Gaskal]

Night and day in the same state lol.

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

"Woohoo! Aim for the corners, boys!"
"I'm gittin' me a hattie tonight!"

Ducks, Honda center

"#### this ####"

Sharks, HP pavilion

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Cube Inmate

I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the opponent's dressing room when they hear Hiller's been named as the starter. He's been so bad this year that I'll bet their players literally cheer when they hear he'll be between the pipes.

"Woohoo! Aim for the corners, boys!"
"I'm gittin' me a hattie tonight!"

I can respect the idea of giving the guy a chance to prove himself in a contract year (a year that's been a write-off for the Flames for the last month)...but I have NEVER seen a guy given so much rope, nor one who's tied such a fine noose for himself with said rope.

You can see it every game now. Teams are flicking little wristers from the point all over the place, and almost every shot is high. They'd done it to an extent all year, but starting at the Columbus game in Calgary about a month ago it's almost every shot now.

[Hackey]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

They were all questioned at the time. Its not some wild revisionist history to say the Engelland/Raymond contracts didn't seem odd at the time.

Instead of signing Mason Raymond for three years, you could have signed random veteran X (say Daniel Winnick) for 1 year and then dealt him and got a draft pick or kept him for the playoff run, then picked up random veteran Y for 1 year and then traded him this year for a draft pick.

Raymond I would agree with. The discussion was Hiller and Engelland though and I don't remember a huge dispute about term with them. A team with no goaltender other than Ramo who was a big question mark at the time needed someone else. Hiller was one of the best options available and maybe 2 years is what it took to get it done. I have no issue with that signing. Engelland people didn't like the cap hit but cap space was our luxury then. I think the term was needed to get the deal done as well. Sometimes its the price you pay to address areas of need. One of those damned if you do damned if you don't type situations. You don't make those moves people are complaining about why we have no veteran goalie or why we have no toughness. I don't see those contracts as major hinderances. I would agree though that Raymond was a poor signing and likely we could have found an option with less term. At the same time Raymond was coming off a 19 goal 45pts season and the Flames were just gutted of their vets. Also have to consider Treliving just arrived in town. He had barely any time to assess the team.

[crapshoot]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

I disagree with this. If Ortio still needs coaches to develop him he shouldn't be in the NHL. The NHL is not a development league. If players aren't able to adapt themselves (such as Monahan, Bennett, Gaudreau) then they should be sent to the AHL where the entire purpose of that league is development. Ortio not playing is a reflection of Ortio, not coaching.

Well, then it just might be time to give him the ball to run with and see how far he gets. He has shown glimpses of being capable before, let's see what he can do with a string of games. Makes no sense going back to Hiller game after game at this point since he'll be out of the league at season's end anyway. Might as well do something useful with the rest of this terrible season.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

I disagree with this. If Ortio still needs coaches to develop him he shouldn't be in the NHL. The NHL is not a development league. If players aren't able to adapt themselves (such as Monahan, Bennett, Gaudreau) then they should be sent to the AHL where the entire purpose of that league is development. Ortio not playing is a reflection of Ortio, not coaching.

So Bennett isn't developing anymore? Or Gaudreau? Or Monahan, Hamilton or Ferland?

You make it to the NHL and you're good to go?

You don't think other teams are continuing to develop goalies at the NHL level by slowly giving them more games and tougher competition while continuing to work with them at practice?

Agree to disagree then I guess.

[tvp2003]

Originally Posted by VladtheImpaler

Maybe he just needs glasses?

[crapshoot]

Also, Jonas Hiller is the grand master of looking defeated. It makes me furious to see him standing around on his knees, shoulders sloping, looking at the roof in despair after every single goal against. His body language is the absolute worst and instills zero confidence. I'd prefer someone who can just suck it up and get back to business. At least Ortio is pretty good at that.

[AcGold]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

I disagree with this. If Ortio still needs coaches to develop him he shouldn't be in the NHL. The NHL is not a development league. If players aren't able to adapt themselves (such as Monahan, Bennett, Gaudreau) then they should be sent to the AHL where the entire purpose of that league is development. Ortio not playing is a reflection of Ortio, not coaching.

How many goalies develop on farm teams and then become instant starters after their first tryout in the NHL?

Brodeur played 4 games in the NHL then an entire season in Utica in the AHL before getting another game, one of the best goalies in history.