[Trade] Leafs trade Spaling/Polak to SJ for two 2nd rd picks

[Ashasx]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Cause advanced stats aren't as important as a group of fans who overrates their impact think they are. I'm not sure why they are so behind the times they actually think some stats replace watching a player, its hilarious!

In reality Polak is a gritty, physical, pain in the ass to play against. The exact type of defenceman that helps you whack, hack and punish forwards near your net. Where are the advanced stats for how much it hurts to stand in front of the net when Polak is all over you?

This is why Engelland will be worth a 2nd+ if we choose to move him. Advanced stat fanboys will always underrate the value of physical defensive defencemen going into the playoffs. Having extra depth in that area is key.

If you think that's Engelland's value, then there really is nothing for me to say because we will never find agreement.

Neither him nor Polak pass my eye test. Both are easy to play against because the opposition team is always in the attacking zone when they are on the ice.

[ricardodw]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Cause advanced stats aren't as important as a group of fans who overrates their impact think they are. I'm not sure why they are so behind the time they actually think some stats replace watching a player, its hilarious!

In reality Polak is a gritty, physical, pain in the ass to play against. The exact type of defenceman that helps you whack, hack and punish forwards near your net. Where are the advanced stats for how much it hurts to stand in front of the net when Polak is all over you?

This is why Engelland will be worth a 2nd+ if we choose to move him. Advanced stat fanboys will always underrate the value of physical defensive defencemen. Having extra depth in that area is key.

Advanced Stats would be a bit more accurate if they tracked how many players dump and went for a line change rather than getting crunched, how many times player didn't drive the net when they were going get thumped.

How many tip ins were missed by a player moving out of the slot or being pushed out.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

will Rusell even be healthy enough to move? will Wideman be back from suspension before the deadline?

if neither of those is true then Engelland may be the defender that Treliving moves instead.

[Poe969]

The main reason I think this bodes well for the Flames is panic. Polak being dealt just means one less option for other teams. Every year we see some real head scratchers at the deadline and hopefully the Flames can cash in on that (again...I'm counting getting a second for Baertschi a steal). Maybe a GM sees every team around him, or at least the ones he's directly competing against, improve and getting Russell not only improves his team but also means another team can't. Things like this will drive up the price for Russell. The fact is that Polak is more physical but Russell blocks an insane amount of shots and can put up points, most teams see that as a good addition to a playoff team down the stretch.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Where are the advanced stats for how much it hurts to stand in front of the net when Polak is all over you?

You're making a mistake in that (I assume) rhetorical question...

A: You're automatically assuming a tangible benefit to that action and,
B: You're assuming that, in the event there is a tangible benefit, that Polak is good at it.

Functionally, one would think that if such were the case that Polak would be good at shot suppression (by denying secondary shots in front of the net) or if you want to advance the argument that it may suppresses quality shots (rather then quantity) by forcing shot attempts to the perimeter then by extension is should lead to Polak being good at goal suppression. The evidence says he's good at neither.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Guess what guys? There's more to hockey than shots and shot suppression. There's more to possession than shots. There's more to winning a 7 game playoff series than advanced stats can begin to tell you.

Here's what I know. Polak makes it a pain I the ass to stand in the crease and screen the goalie. Less effective screens = less effective scoring chances. Thats how hockey works for me guys. I know the advanced stats fanboys can't make sense of that because advanced stats don't generally tell you about all the positive things that physical defensive defencemen do for you.

Seriously this over reliance and overemphasis on the importance of shots above all else is ludicrous. Advanced stats just don't tell the whole story and that's a fact.

[FlamesAddiction]

I'm with you. Polak is sometimes too quiet, but when he gets going, he has a good mean streak and is as tough as any player in the league. He is pretty much what our team lacks.

[GioforPM]

I await the Big Tuna post where Polak suddenly is a bad defenceman.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

On the bright side boys and girls it is indeed looking like the sellers market most of us predicted. Gritty bottom pairing d-men are going for a 2nd rounder+. Which means both Russell and Engelland should be worth that.

I still wonder if Wideman is moveable this deadline depending on the appeal. When is the appeal to the arbitrator being heard?

[Poe969]

*can someone start a thread with the top pending UFA's where we can guess they'll go and give reasons? Like a general deadline thread. It'd be nice to see where people think some guys will go and why.

I'd love to see the Flames deal a bunch of guys if they're able to and maybe a team will come calling for Engelland or Smid if they want a physical guy on the back end.

[Oling_Roachinen]

We're not talking about a prime Regehr here though either.

Babcock decided to play Rielly, Hunwick, Phaneuf and Gardiner 2 minutes more than Polak when it came to even-strength time on ice per game. Like the Flames, the Leafs have struggled with goaltending but they are still one of the worst teams defensively this year. It's not like Polak was pushed down the depth chart due to insane depth.

The last time he was in the playoffs he was a liability against the Blackhawks and ended up seeing limited ice-time by the end of the series. A reason why the Blues traded him for another 5th defenseman in Gunnarson.

For a big guy, he's not too much of a liability with his skating. Under the right situation I can see him "excelling," but with that I mean looking like maybe a number 4 defenseman. That likely won't happen with the Sharks because he's been brought in as a number 5 guy behind Vlasic, Burns, Martin and Braun. Outside of those guys though, the depth drops off quickly though so the Sharks were wise to bring in someone to help solidify their bottom pairing and provide potential backup in case of injury to their top 4. I just don't know if Polak at that price was the best decision.

[Strange Brew]

Pretty smart of the Leafs to set the market IMO. Takes any risk of injury off the table and you avoid Burke's excuse on the Cammalleri non-trade that the market was "locked up" because of one GM's actions or lack thereof.

And does anyone really think Engelland returns a 2nd rounder+. What is the + anyways, just so we know exactly what you are proposing.

[mdubz]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

I'm with you. Polak is sometimes too quiet, but when he gets going, he has a good mean streak and is as tough as any player in the league. He is pretty much what our team lacks.

So he's basically what Engelland was supposed to be?

[codynw]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

And does anyone really think Engelland returns a 2nd rounder+. What is the + anyways, just so we know exactly what you are proposing.

Maybe a cap dump with a worse contract than Engelland's? Otherwise it doesn't really make sense.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

And does anyone really think Engelland returns a 2nd rounder+. What is the + anyways, just so we know exactly what you are proposing.

Bet you the number of people who thought Polak would return two 2nds was pretty minimal or non-existent. Fan perception of player value has zero to do with actual player value. Looks like on HF some Leafs fans were going to be surprised if Polak got even one 2nd.

I think Engelland returns more than a 2nd rounder if we choose to move him at the deadline, that's what I mean by plus. If I knew exactly what that was I would be employed by TSN or Sportsnet. Polak and Engelland are very similar in role and IMO should be fairly similar in value at this deadline.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Here's what I know. Polak makes it a pain I the ass to stand in the crease and screen the goalie. Less effective screens = less effective scoring chances.

Then how come he's not very good at goal suppression?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Then how come he's not very good at goal suppression?

I don't think you've proven he isn't.

Polak is a good, strong, physical defensive defensemen. Over a playoff series he's going to make the other team pay the price. If they wanna crash the cease they're going to have to get abused. He helps you win in the playoffs. He may injure the opponents or make them think twice about going into the corner with him or going to the front of the net.

I just don't think your fancy stats really capture the whole story on physical defensive defensemen. I'm not sure they ever will.

You wanna win in the playoffs? Add some physical defensive defensemen and power forwards. The fancy stats may not prove how much they help in the playoffs but you aren't going to get anywhere without some size, strength and sandpaper. I don't need fancy stats to prove it because I've watched it for two decades with my own eyes.

SJ needs to go through ANA and LA to win the cup. You wanna beat forwards like Maroon, Perry, Getlzaf, Kesler, Lucic, etc in a 7 game series? You're gonna need some beef on the blue line. Polak is a frickin warrior and will make life miserable for those big forwards in the Pacific whenever he's on the ice.

[Resolute 14]

I get what you are saying, FDW, and I generally agree with your overall point. But Roman Polak is not going to put the Sharks over the Ducks or Kings any more than Deryk Engelland got us past Anaheim last year. Polak adds value fancy stats don't see, but he doesn't add enough to counter the negatives that those stats do identify.

[northcrunk]

Polak is great if you like dumb penalties and playing on the PK.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

I don't think you've proven he isn't.

It's right there in the chart that Ashasx posted. His GA60 RelTM (for those who don't know what that means it's Goals Against per 60 minutes of Icetime relative to Teammates) marks him as a bottom pairing defenseman.

If you want to argue that he's somehow a guy who's playoffs performance mitigates that then let's look at Polak in the Playoffs... Career Numbers for Roman Polak (4 trips to the post-season): 25GP, 0G, 2A, -11. number of series won: 1, number of series lost: 4.

Roman Polak is No Good. Or at least he's not very good at preventing the other team from scoring which should be a principle outcome for a defenseman).