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"An idea is always a generalization, and generalization is a property of thinking. To generalize means to think." Georg Hegel
“To generalize is to be an idiot.” William Blake
Health care spending threatens to devour the budget of every province in Canada. Combine that with stagnation in government revenues you see with an ageing population, and all government programs are going to be squeezed.
Sounds like we need to roll back the Mulroney prescription drug laws.
Location: In a land without pants, or war, or want. But mostly we care about the pants.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by peter12
Well, you have something called efficiencies. Besides, the overall issue is where will this money come from - not where you want to spend it.
Ultimately it comes from assigning priorities for labour and resources. Is the market more efficient at that assignment in the specific case of health care? Undecided, at least if you look at evidence and not just a favourite theory of how economies *should* work in an idealized world. That's why it's disingenuous to say that that the 'welfare state" (which is much like "pro-life" or "tar sands" as an expression of emotional resonance as opposed to descriptive power) must come to end because health care spending is out of control: the logic does not follow. The spending is not going out of control because of health care is public, the spending is out of control because of changing demographics.
Let me put it another way: no matter what economic system you have, it is not sustainable if there is too large of a non-productive population, which is what the elderly are increasingly becoming. The choices are three: increase productivity of those who do work; add more workers; accept a lower standard of living*. Or you can embrace more than one of those options, as you see fit. Messing around with your economic system may have other benefits, but it is not going to solve a demographic crisis, because it does none of those three things directly.
*There's also the option of reducing the numbers of the non-productive, however it is unlikely that culling the herd of the weak will gather many votes, despite how Trump is doing in the primaries.
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Two guys arguing opposite side and no verifiable facts presented.
If youre going to call someone out, then give us some links with concrete facts to support what you are saying.
For example, provide stats on manufacturing and export. This isnt a grey area. Those are verifiable numbers.
Oh come on. Google and Wikipedia it yourself.
EDIT: I'm generally all for providing facts and figures for all sorts of things, but explaining all of Finnish economy and welfare system, even on a very basic level, would be way too much work considering that it matters almost not at all what you think of it. No offense to anyone.
Seriously. If you want to talk the future of Canadian society, go right ahead. But just don't think you know enough of Finnish society to make worthwhile comparisons. You just don't. Unless you're going to spend at least months if not years studying the topic and/or living in Finland, you're not going to.
Societies are complicated.
Last edited by Itse; 02-17-2016 at 05:53 PM.
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Your friend is essentially the biggest loser of the Finnish taxation system, getting a big salary but probably no other incentives and unable to set up a company through which he could sell his services to his employer.
Rich people generally only pay the capital gains tax, which is 30-34%, plus tax evasion is rampant in higher incomes. Lots of people in the private sector who pull high salaries also have various means to avoid the income tax. (Lawyers being a prototypical example here in Finland.)
I drive a cab and pay around total 28% income tax, which I don't think is too bad.
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Originally Posted by Itse
Spoiler!
Very little of the above is accurate, and most of it is flat out untrue.
First of all, you're not allowed to study while unemployed. It's literally forbidden, or else you lose your unemployment benefits. Student benefits are smaller than unemployment benefits, and if you already have one education you probably don't qualify for student benefits anymore. So for most unemployed studying is just not an option.
You are btw also forbidden to do any work in your field, even for charity, unless mandated by the unemployement office. Also, if you set up your own company and do any work in your own field, no matter how little money you make, you immediately disqualify for any benefits. In short, while unemployed you are forbidden to do anything that the unemployment office isn't telling you to do.
You don't get food. This is just not how it works in Finland, except if you're considered unfit to handle money by the social services. The typical unemployment benefits for the long term unemployed are very small. Typical things considered "luxuries" by the unemployed are for example cheese. (There are songs about it.)
"Training" for the unemployed is these days generally unpaid work. You go to work for six months, you don't get paid while in training, at the end of it you're replaced by another "trainee". This statistically almost never results in anyone actually getting a job. If you don't go on the other hand, you might lose your benefits. Even if the job isn't in your field. An academic friend of mine was essentially forced to work at an assembly line for example. Again, unpaid.
Finland has one of the biggest gaps in availability of healthcare services for working and non-working people in Europe. We regurarly get notes from the EU chastising us for the availability of many healthcare services for the unemployed.
Psychological services are pretty much not available at all unless you have really serious problems. For example it has proven impossible for me to get treatment for my ADD. As in, I have a diagnonis but I still can't get a recipe for medication. I can't afford to buy the psychiatric services from the private sector (unless I could find a doctor who was willing to just flat out write me a recipe without regular checkups, which is rare), and have been flat out told by the public sector that I'm not getting help from them. As long as I can work in my current job I'm not considered sick enough. On the other hand if I was unable to work, I'd simply be unemployed, in which case my treatment is also not paid because they only pay psychological services that support a persons ability to work.
The other reason to get publicly paid psychological treatment is if you're a threat to yourself or others. Suicidal or otherwise deeply disturbed. So most unemployed people are pretty much just s*** out of luck with their problems.
Recreational services are most certainly not available for the unemployed. There is some support for childrens hobbies, but that's pretty much it. You most certainly don't get a massage unless it's part of a physiotheratic treatment.
I'm sorry but your friend obviously has almost no contact to the lives of actually unemployed people. (Which isn't surprising considering that as a professor he personally has only really known success in his career and he currently pulls around double the average salary). Plus he doesn't apparently read the news, which is a bit surprising for a professor.
The healthcare services are not free, and neither is medication. They are very heavily subsidized, but the costs are still significant if you're actually poor. Ynless you have an emergency, it can also take weeks to get a doctors appointment from the public sector. (Although that depends heavily on where you live. There are plenty of areas where the situation is better.)
Accommodation is not free. You can currently get benefits for up to 80% of your rent, but the rest you have to cover from your other benefits. There's a cap on how high a rent they'll support, if yours is more than that you also have to cover the difference yourself. In high-rent citys such as Helsinki it can be very difficult to get a flat that qualifies for full rent support.
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Originally Posted by Itse
Spoiler!
Communism is generally defined by the common ownership of the means of production.
Finland is most certainly not a communist society by any reasonable definition, not even a little. There are some government owned companies still, but they are rapidly being sold. (Generally on the cheap.)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Itse
Spoiler!
Again, not accurate at all.
Finland has been regurarly ranked in the top 10 of the most competitive economies of the world, even occasionally hitting #1. International trade is about third of our GDP. Typical exports are for example chemicals and various machinery. (You have probably all ridden in a Kone-elevator.) We're also still one of the worlds top IT countries. We also have a smallish but rapidly growing gaming industry. (Clash of Clans and Angry Birds being the best known examples, but there's also companies like Remedy (Max Payne, Alan Wake, upcoming Quantum Break)
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Finland is emerging into some communist hellscape?
Not the case at all.
The whole discussion about communism coming back to Canada, based on the government providing welfare is within throwing distance of the lunatic fringe.
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Since when is Holland a Scandinavian country? And technically Finland isn't either.
Holland was never. Country. Holland is 2 of 12 provinces of the Netherlands.e misconception the Holland was a country comes from most trading ships came from Noord-Holland and Zuid-Holland (North and South Holland) so when encountering Dutch traders most people would just assume they were from Holland thinking it was a country.
Point 2.
Finland may not be part of the peninsula but regardless of the geographic location that really isn't important in the end, as Denmark, Finland, Sweden, and Norway have all been pretty intimately involved in each others' culture, politics, and history for centuries.
Last edited by combustiblefuel; 02-20-2016 at 04:09 AM.
Debt/capita is also huge, much higher than Canadian ( here ). Social welfare quality is declining, according to what I've been told by a source I have no reason to doubt.
That's external debt which is the total amount of debt owed by a country which includes citizens and corporations as well as the government to foreigners. According to the Bank of Finland most of that is owed by financial institutions which isn't too surprising for a small well run country in the eurozone.
Holland was never. Country. Holland is 2 of 12 provinces of the Netherlands.e misconception the Holland was a country comes from most trading ships came from Noord-Holland and Zuid-Holland (North and South Holland) so when encountering Dutch traders most people would just assume they were from Holland thinking it was a country.
Point 2.
Finland may not be part of the peninsula but regardless of the geographic location that really isn't important in the end, as Denmark, Finland, Sweden, and Norway have all been pretty intimately involved in each others' culture, politics, and history for centuries.
I think VofH was just using the OP's term.
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Originally Posted by CaptainYooh
...Before I get to the point of the thread, I should mention that I have visited other Scandinavian countries previously (specifically, Sweden, Denmark, Holland) and I am familiar with the general political and cultural settings of these countries...
It's pretty common in English and other languages to call the whole country Holland, even though technically incorrect. Holland was the English name of the area before The Netherlands became a country. We still call Deutschland/Germany a name from Roman times so the Dutch should be happy we get their country name right most of the time now.
Last edited by Magnum PEI; 02-20-2016 at 12:25 PM.
Btw, fact checked that tax percentage. The average salary of a university professor in Finland is about 6800 euros per month. The average income tax for that is 41,1% +/- 2 points depending on where you live, and that's including everything. (Municipal tax, church tax if he's part of the Lutheran church, health insurance, automatic deductions...)
Btw, fact checked that tax percentage. The average salary of a university professor in Finland is about 6800 euros per month. The average income tax for that is 41,1% +/- 2 points depending on where you live, and that's including everything. (Municipal tax, church tax if he's part of the Lutheran church, health insurance, automatic deductions...)
Not income tax, but that VAT (sales tax) rate is 24% in Finland which is a sizable chunk of change (less on food and some other things).
