This is a common response but I find it terribly naive.
Agitators draw as many penalties as they take. The refs keep things pretty even. Teams need to defend themselves.
That doesn't mean send a puncher out to fight the other team's puncher, it means guys getting in the face of the other team.
As for Ferland and Poirier, if they were that kind of player, they already would be. But they're not. Ferland hits and forechecks well, but he isn't a ####disturber for the most part.
Poirier totally had a reputation as being a pest/agitator in junior so he already is good in that role. Go back and read the scouting reports on him.
A guy who can carry the puck as well as or better than 80% of the forwards on the roster (or similarily to anybody not named Gaudreau/Backlund/Bennett/Hudler), cycle in the offensive zone with his strong frame, who can forecheck effectively with his powerful skating, and screen goaltenders on the PP. All more important skills than hacking a guy in the back of the knee when no one is looking.
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All excuses. Who's the "jerk" on the Chicago Blackhawks that "protects" Kane/Panarin/Teravainen? It's probably Andrew Shaw at best? Not exactly intimidating.
The difference is on-ice play. Scoring and stopping the other team from scoring.
Yeah its a game played by people, not a computer simulation. Emotions matter.
You think the Hawks shrink away?
When Kesler gave it to Toews
When a Hawk got run from behind
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That's what we were sold after last year's playoffs but Bennett currently shames him in this regard. He needs to play every game like it's against the Canucks or he's just a movable part.
Last edited by Erick Estrada; 02-16-2016 at 02:18 PM.
Yeah its a game played by people, not a computer simulation. Emotions matter.
You think the Hawks shrink away?
Tthe Hawks don't have a designated "****-disturber" / thug. They're not too different from the Flames. You're not really trying to sell that Toews is some kind of pest/agitator are you?
If you can pull up a few isolated incident videos of the Hawks "getting involved" I can guarantee you someone can do the same for the Flames. Back your argument with proof that the Flames are "softer" than the cup champs. I can show you a video of Bennett protecting Gaudreau after a hit, or Russell, or I can show you Gio standing up for himself and fighting, or I can even show you "Deryk Engelland fights two guys". It's all enecdotal because it doesn't show trends, tendancies, or anything resembling a pattern.
The difference is ability.
Last edited by GranteedEV; 02-16-2016 at 02:19 PM.
That's what we were sold after last year's playoffs but Bennett currently shames him in this regard. He needs to play every game like it's against the Canucks or he's just a movable part.
What's your issue with Ferland? I honestly don't get it. You seem to criticize him a lot and he really doesn't deserve it. The points aren't there yet but I consistently see Ferland doing good things both offensively and defensively. He obviously hasn't lived up to what he did in the playoffs but I don't think anyone realistically expected him to. He's still been a good player most of the year, and he leads the team in hits by a fairly large amount.
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Before you call me a pessimist or a downer, the Flames made me this way. Blame them.
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Monahan is the worst for this. Last I checked he had 18 registered hits. In comparison, Bennett and Ferland had 100+ in less games. This has to change. I dont know that a pest would make a difference if everyone else plays passively.
Monahan and Hamilton are likely going to be top-6 in ice time for the Flames for the foreseeable future, and they're both butter soft. I think we're agreed Gaudreau isn't going to get physical with anyone. Brodie is meh. So we have Bennet and Gio as core players who will sometimes play with bite. That's it.
Now look at the Hawks. Let's call Toews and Bennet a saw-off in terms of being tough to play against. And let's do the same for Keith and Gio. Who do you think would be tougher to play against physically:
Gaudreau
Monahan
Hamilton
Brodie
Or
Kane
Hossa
Seabrook
Hjalmarson
I give that to the Hawks. And they're the least intimidating of the Stanley Cup contenders by a fair bit.
Fact is, this is an extremely soft team, and will likely remain that way unless someone can find a way to get Monahan, Hamilton, and maybe Brodie to play riled up once in a while.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
Last edited by CliffFletcher; 02-16-2016 at 03:17 PM.
This team is physically smaller, but I don't think they are soft. However they do play really soft, whether that is Hartley's doing or not I don't know.
Too often I see some of our bigger players do fly by's on the opposing players. Too many stick checks and no body contact. I'm not saying they need to run everyone into the boards, but a proper check goes a long way.
Monahan is the worst for this. Last I checked he had 18 registered hits. In comparison, Bennett and Ferland had 100+ in less games. This has to change. I dont know that a pest would make a difference if everyone else plays passively.
Pests are contagious. Their antics can help boost their teammates it also gets the opposition riled up and which forces your own team to step up the physicality too.
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Monahan and Hamilton are likely going to be top-6 in ice time for the Flames for the foreseeable future, and they're both butter soft. I think we're agreed Gaudreau isn't going to get physical with anyone. Brodie is meh. So we have Bennet and Gio as core players who will sometimes play with bite. That's it.
Now look at the Hawks. Let's call Toews and Bennet a saw-off in terms of being tough to play against. And let's do the same for Keith and Gio. Who do you think would be tougher to play against physically:
Gaudreau
Monahan
Hamilton
Brodie
Or
Kane
Hossa
Seabrook
Hjalmarson
I give that to the Hawks. And they're the least intimidating of the Stanley Cup contenders by a fair bit.
Fact is, this is an extremely soft team, and will likely remain that way unless someone can find a way to get Monahan, Hamilton, and maybe Brodie to play riled up once in a while.
I find your comparison interesting, but your conclusion odd. Both sets of core players are actually very comparable and you draw the conclusion that the Hawks are tougher.
The most obvious conclusion in my view based on this comparison is that you can build a repeat Stanley Cup champion without having to be the LA Kings, and that the Flames are on the same core development path as the very successful Hawks team.
I find your comparison interesting, but your conclusion odd. Both sets of core players are actually very comparable and you draw the conclusion that the Hawks are tougher.
The most obvious conclusion in my view based on this comparison is that you can build a repeat Stanley Cup champion without having to be the LA Kings, and that the Flames are on the same core development path as the very successful Hawks team.
Kane is more physical than Gaudreau (not that it matters much in this case).
Hossa is more physical than Monahan.
Seabrook is a lot more physical than Hamilton.
Hjalmarson and Brodie are a saw-off.
And that's discounting the crucial roles guys like Laad, Byfuglien, and Bickell played in earlier Cup wins. The current Hawks line-up is the softest since before Toews and Kane arrived.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
We have needed a Steve Downey loose cannon on this team for years.
That's one guy who NO ONE knew what he was going to do. Maybe score, maybe headhunt, maybe fight? Who knows. Totally unpredictable and I'd take him any day on this team.
Location: F*** me. We're so f***ing good, you check the f***ing standings? Lets f***ing go! F***ing practice!
Exp:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buff
Pests are contagious. Their antics can help boost their teammates it also gets the opposition riled up and which forces your own team to step up the physicality too.
I was about to post almost exactly what you put here.
They can draw your team into the game. Make emotion where there was none.
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Oilers suck.
I'd love for the Flames to have a good pest, but I don't want them to be one that gets suspended for injuring guys on the regular. They just need to be annoying and physical without being dirty.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by CroFlames
Before you call me a pessimist or a downer, the Flames made me this way. Blame them.
I wonder if in the future Poirier can be that guy. Like a Brad Marchand.
Emile had 129 PIMs in his last season of junior. If he is going to make the jump to the NHL he might need to add some of that grit/truculence to his game. Especially if he doesn't have the skill/finish to be a top 6 guy.
Kane is more physical than Gaudreau (not that it matters much in this case).
Hossa is more physical than Monahan.
Seabrook is a lot more physical than Hamilton.
Hjalmarson and Brodie are a saw-off.
And that's discounting the crucial roles guys like Laad, Byfuglien, and Bickell played in earlier Cup wins. The current Hawks line-up is the softest since before Toews and Kane arrived.
Who cares who's more physical? Are the Blackhawks better than the Flames because they are more physical or way deeper and more talented overall?
Eaxctly. It took him getting a bad couple penalties in Game 1 and 2 of the playoffs, and the Canucks beaking at him, to get fired up. He lasted one shift vs the Ducks until Fowler (I think) got his arm up and Ferland was effectively done that series, and we've seen some flashes since.
Serviceabnle NHL'er? Sure, but he has to be a consistent crap disturber. Doesn't mean flying around the ice like the Vancouver playoff series but it has to be a lot more than he shows now in that regard, which is very infrequent. Dont see too many turnovers created through a forecheck, or a consistent cycle...see that more out off Colborne (another story), so not sure, in practice, what he's using his stature and aggression for, consistently.
Maybe it is partly due to Hartley, where its defense first and warns him and other young guys not get caught out of position or you're stapled on the bench, and that has him not playing his game. But if he is not going to be that physical guy,and just another forward, may as well spend the time to develop a skilled forward like Granlund with those minutes instead.
