Feb 10 Practice

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

As for not playing young players: Gaudreau, Bennett, Monahan, Ferland, Bouma, Colborne, Granlund, Jooris and Brodie say hi.

- He didn't play Bennett until game 82 of last season even though Bennett was available for weeks before that. We discovered in the playoffs that Bennett was the 3rd or 4th best forward on this entire roster. He still hasn't played Bennett at his natural position. So , no, he didn't play Bennett when Bennett should have played. He's still mismanaging Bennett

- Obviously he played Gaudreau. Gaudreau is a winger and a superstar. If you need to be a superstar winger to have a rookie season, that's not a show of "giving opportunity". Gaudreaus come around once a draft.

- He was mandated from above to play 24YO Colborne. Let's not pretend Colborne earned anything. He didn't.

- Monahan is a #6 overall pick. That was Burke/Feaster's call to "play him".

- He was forced to play Granlund due to highly unlikely simultaneous injuries to Backlund/Stajan at the same time. Also this season from Treliving's comments it sounds like he's being mandated to play Granlund in a scoring role instead of with the likes of Bollig and co. So again, a mandate from above.

- Jooris is one shining example of a roster spot earned by a non-entitled rookie under Hartley over four seasons. And he gets scratched regularily even when he's outplaying entitled players like Colborne.

-Hartley didn't play Brodie, Brent Sutter did. And it took practically giving Jay Bouwmeester away in a poor value trade to get Brodie up the lineup. Brodie might not even be in the NHL right now if he had to play his rookie season under Hartley. That's a scary thought.

All that leaves are Bouma and Ferland. Low-mistake players playing low-mistake position and low-mistake minutes, and BTW Bouma made his debut under Sutter too.

[polak]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That's a hell of a rebuttal to the list of players I mentioned - one quibble about Brodie's age.

Backlund is still a fairly young player too. Plus Brodie is a D so tack on a couple years to "young", since they are typically a couple years slower to develop.

Wasn't disagreeing or agreeing with you. Just mentioning it. If you throw Brodie and Bouma in, you might as well throw in Backlund too.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

You're being obtuse. Sure people complain about rookie icetime but we're talking about 1:45 of icetime after sitting him game after game without a sniff. I checked the stats at nhl.com for TOI per game.

The only player with a lower icetime per game this year was Wizniewski who tore his ACL 47 seconds into his first shift. Scores of guys up from the minors, many for the first time, some defencemen, goons who can barely skate, also with only one game on the season but no one anywhere close to as low as 1:45.

Now I get that Nakladal is probably not the second-coming but let's call a spade a spade. Hartley's being a dick in a way no other coach has this entire season. I would not sign to play for a head coach like that. It doesn't send a good message.

I second this thought. I'm never one to let players have a free ride, or be gift wrapped minutes or a roster spot. But for crying out loud.

You scratched three forwards and put Engelland up. Have Smid & Nakladal as your bottom pair and give them 10 to 12 minutes of ice. If Nakladal is struggling mightily after 6 to 8 minutes, then you bench him and bring Engelland back. Then we know Nakladal can't cut it, and send him back to the minors.

After 1:45 TOI you can't judge a guy, I'm sorry. Now we'll continue to wonder what Nakladal can do until he gets at least a regular shift for a game or two.

[MissTeeks]

Were people this upset when Tim Ramholt only got 45 seconds in his one and only NHL game?

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

- He didn't play Bennett until game 82 of last season even though Bennett was available for weeks before that. We discovered in the playoffs that Bennett was the 3rd or 4th best forward on this entire roster. He still hasn't played Bennett at his natural position. So , no, he didn't play Bennett when Bennett should have played. He's still mismanaging Bennett

- Obviously he played Gaudreau. Gaudreau is a winger and a superstar. If you need to be a superstar winger to have a rookie season, that's not a show of "giving opportunity". Gaudreaus come around once a draft.

- He was mandated from above to play 24YO Colborne. Let's not pretend Colborne earned anything. He didn't.

- Monahan is a #6 overall pick. That was Burke/Feaster's call to "play him".

- He was forced to play Granlund due to highly unlikely simultaneous injuries to Backlund/Stajan at the same time. Also this season from Treliving's comments it sounds like he's being mandated to play Granlund in a scoring role instead of with the likes of Bollig and co. So again, a mandate from above.

- Jooris is one shining example of a roster spot earned by a non-entitled rookie under Hartley over four seasons. And he gets scratched regularily even when he's outplaying entitled players like Colborne.

-Hartley didn't play Brodie, Brent Sutter did. And it took practically giving Jay Bouwmeester away in a poor value trade to get Brodie up the lineup. Brodie might not even be in the NHL right now if he had to play his rookie season under Hartley. That's a scary thought.

All that leaves are Bouma and Ferland. Low-mistake players playing low-mistake position and low-mistake minutes, and BTW Bouma made his debut under Sutter too.

You just made up a ton of stuff in this post to support your argument. Try again without speculation and all the crap about mandating.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

- He didn't play Bennett until game 82 of last season even though Bennett was available for weeks before that. We discovered in the playoffs that Bennett was the 3rd or 4th best forward on this entire roster. He still hasn't played Bennett at his natural position. So , no, he didn't play Bennett when Bennett should have played. He's still mismanaging Bennett

- Obviously he played Gaudreau. Gaudreau is a winger and a superstar. If you need to be a superstar winger to have a rookie season, that's not a show of "giving opportunity". Gaudreaus come around once a draft.

- He was mandated from above to play 24YO Colborne. Let's not pretend Colborne earned anything. He didn't.

- Monahan is a #6 overall pick. That was Burke/Feaster's call to "play him".

- He was forced to play Granlund due to highly unlikely simultaneous injuries to Backlund/Stajan at the same time. Also this season from Treliving's comments it sounds like he's being mandated to play Granlund in a scoring role instead of with the likes of Bollig and co. So again, a mandate from above.

- Jooris is one shining example of a roster spot earned by a non-entitled rookie under Hartley over four seasons. And he gets scratched regularily even when he's outplaying entitled players like Colborne.

-Hartley didn't play Brodie, Brent Sutter did. And it took practically giving Jay Bouwmeester away in a poor value trade to get Brodie up the lineup. Brodie might not even be in the NHL right now if he had to play his rookie season under Hartley. That's a scary thought.

All that leaves are Bouma and Ferland. Low-mistake players playing low-mistake position and low-mistake minutes, and BTW Bouma made his debut under Sutter too.

Sooooo - Hartley plays young players, but it's totally not his choice or anything.

BTW, I don't care about when they debuted - I'm talking about them actually playing any kind of role to establish themselves. For example, it was Hartley that played Bouma a lot.

You seem to want players to be gifted big minutes in situations where they can easily fail. You aer also ignoring examples when Hartley played young guys and it did't work as well. What do you say about Shore, Poirier, Sven, etc?

[mikephoen]

Originally Posted by MissTeeks

Were people this upset when Tim Ramholt only got 45 seconds in his one and only NHL game?

Yes. Some of them are the same ones upset about this.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Sooooo - Hartley plays young players, but it's totally not his choice or anything.

Yes. That much is clear over the last four seasons.

BTW, I don't care about when they debuted - I'm talking about them actually playing any kind of role to establish themselves. For example, it was Hartley that played Bouma a lot.

Doesn't matter. Bouma, Backlund, Brodie, all these guys were regulars on the NHL roster before Hartley got here. He had no control over whether he played them only how much. It was their own abilities that got them better opportunities, but the original opportunity wasn't in Hartley's hands. Had it been, we don't know if any of them would be in the NHL. Hartley scratched Brodie his first game, he put Backlund through hell in the first half of 2013, and Bouma is so generic a player he's a useless example. Hartley hates the possibility of unfamiliar players making mistakes so much, he holds them back until he has no other option. That's a terrible approach. He'd rather play Chris Butler 22 minutes a game than gamble on an unknown that might not be as terrible as Chris Butler.

Until an NHL defenseman, not a phenom like Chychrun, but an ordinary, internally developed NHL-regular defenseman, plays a calder eligible season under Hartley, that much will be clear.

You seem to want players to be gifted big minutes in situations where they can easily fail. You aer also ignoring examples when Hartley played young guys and it did't work as well. What do you say about Shore, Poirier, Sven, etc?

I would say the only one among Shore, Poirier, Sven, etc that is not still in the organization anymore is in the NHL, relatively succeeding in his situation which involves big minutes. "gifted" is silly, it implies you need to play less than better players to play more. No, you need to play appropriately to how much you contribute to the team. But you're someone who thinks Sven Baertschi should still be the AHL "doing his time" right?

[Toonage]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Yes. That much is clear over the last four seasons.

Doesn't matter. Bouma, Backlund, Brodie, all these guys were regulars on the NHL roster before Hartley got here.

Brodie was a call up in the spring of 2012. Not a regular.

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Doesn't matter. Bouma, Backlund, Brodie, all these guys were regulars on the NHL roster before Hartley got here. He had no control over whether he played them only how much. It was their own abilities that got them better opportunities, but the original opportunity wasn't in Hartley's hands.

Weren't you one of the many posters complaining when Backlund was being repeatedly healthy scratched by Hartley in early 2014?

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Yes. Some of them are the same ones upset about this.

Yeah, Darryl was even harder on rookies than Bob is. Hartley has his favorites but at least he's given a few guys a good shot. IIRC Darryl sat out Kobasew after a 2 goal game.

Still I would have liked for Nakladal to have seen more ice time as well as Ramholt.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

Weren't you one of the many posters complaining when Backlund was being repeatedly healthy scratched by Hartley in early 2014?

Like I said, "he put Backlund through hell in the first half of 2013". Hartley mishandled Backlund that year. Saying he "played Backlund" is misleading considering Backlund was the best center on the roster and Hartley was treating him like that.

He's never handled young players very well. Other teams have, better and worse teams. The idea of "Earned never given" is fine, but he's never let them earn it. It's only if he decides to "give" is it ever earned.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Yes. That much is clear over the last four seasons.



Doesn't matter. Bouma, Backlund, Brodie, all these guys were regulars on the NHL roster before Hartley got here. He had no control over whether he played them only how much. It was their own abilities that got them better opportunities, but the original opportunity wasn't in Hartley's hands. Had it been, we don't know if any of them would be in the NHL. Hartley scratched Brodie his first game, he put Backlund through hell in the first half of 2013, and Bouma is so generic a player he's a useless example. Hartley hates the possibility of unfamiliar players making mistakes so much, he holds them back until he has no other option. That's a terrible approach. He'd rather play Chris Butler 22 minutes a game than gamble on an unknown that might not be as terrible as Chris Butler.

Until an NHL defenseman, not a phenom like Chychrun, but an ordinary, internally developed NHL-regular defenseman, plays a calder eligible season under Hartley, that much will be clear.



I would say the only one among Shore, Poirier, Sven, etc that is not still in the organization anymore is in the NHL, relatively succeeding in his situation which involves big minutes. "gifted" is silly, it implies you need to play less than better players to play more. No, you need to play appropriately to how much you contribute to the team. But you're someone who thinks Sven Baertschi should still be the AHL "doing his time" right?

Brodie had just 50-some games under Brent, he was hardly a regular on the NHL roster before Hartley arrived. I seriously think you've got the coaches mixed up here. It was Brent who kept force feeding Butler 20+ minutes per game, not Hartley

[Calgary4LIfe]

I am not too sure why people are so up in arms over how Hartley brings in players from the AHL. He has had lots of players coming through in the last few seasons. He shows patience at times, and he shows impatience at other times - so one has to ask if he is seeing something that we aren't. That is his job to see it - that is what makes him the head coach, and us fans.

I am not worried about Nakladal's chances at all in the NHL. He will get his time up. Flames are still very much trying to win games and make the post-season. Everyone knows it is pretty much over at this point, but this organization does not give up. As it becomes less likely that the Flames will make it later on in the year, I would bet that Hartley gives way more of a look to guys like Nakladal, Grant (once his jaw heals of course), Shore, Agostino, etc.

He has to make-up the roster that he feels gives the Flames the best chance to win, and he has to use everyone in how he feels works. Heck - maybe Hartley just wants Nakladal to get in a few more practices and get used to what his expectations are so that he doesn't get lost and get in over his head.

If you were to ask me, I would think that bringing a guy in too slowly and possibly irritating a prospect/NHL rookie (not that Nakladal feels this), is a better alternative to throwing one out there and having his confidence eroded when he isn't always sure where to be and has to figure it out at NHL game speed.

Let's grade Hartley on his willingness to give guys shots at the end of the season - or at least when the pressure to win and get back into the playoff picture is at least over with. That's my opinion anyways. Grant got a good look. Granlund continues to get a very long look. Jooris did it last year. Kulak got it at the beginning of the season. Ferland did the most of it last year with his look, and parlayed that into being a regular this season.

Keep in mind that it is much more difficult to get defencemen in for looks when the pressure is still there to win, as they are much more difficult to shelter than a forward is.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Brodie had just 50-some games under Brent, he was hardly a regular on the NHL roster before Hartley arrived. I seriously think you've got the coaches mixed up here. It was Brent who kept force feeding Butler 20+ minutes per game, not Hartley

50+ games is more games than we've had rookie defensemen play combined under Hartley's reign. Do the math. Wotherspoon+Kulak+Cundari+that tall guy whose name I forget... that's pretty much it. You're right that Sutter played Butler too much but so did Hartley. The difference is Sutter at least gave Brodie an opportunity to play and build an NHL resume. I have no confidence Hartley does the same.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

...I would say the only one among Shore, Poirier, Sven, etc that is not still in the organization anymore is in the NHL, relatively succeeding in his situation which involves big minutes. "gifted" is silly, it implies you need to play less than better players to play more. No, you need to play appropriately to how much you contribute to the team. But you're someone who thinks Sven Baertschi should still be the AHL "doing his time" right?

Having watched him quite a lot, I am someone who thinks that Baertschi is finally doing the things that were always bound to make him a successful NHLer. Things that he NEVER did while with the Flames, but that if he had, there is every indication he would find himself in the same position then as he does now. Baertschi's success now is no different than his lack of success while with the Flames: in both cases, it was always up to him to meet expectations, and not on the organization for holding him back.

[Coach]

I'm a big Hartley supporter, but I too am a little perplexed/frustrated by his handling of the Dmen that get called up to play. Nakladal is killing it in the AHL, I don't see a reason not to give him a decent look. Two shifts is pretty ridiculous. Especially when we were up by 3 goals. Let the guy have a couple shifts.

[northcrunk]

I feel like we are less than a year away from fans calling for Hartley to be fired.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

I feel like we are less than a year away from fans calling for Hartley to be fired.

There are some who wanted him fired before he won the effing Adams.

I'd like to see some names thrown around. Who's a better option at this point, for rebuilding and beyond?

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

During the actual rebuild (by which I mean post-Iggy), Hartley is 104-95-17. Not bad over 2.5 seasons.

As for not playing young players: Gaudreau, Bennett, Monahan, Ferland, Bouma, Colborne, Granlund, Jooris and Brodie say hi.

But, some of those are great players, you say? Well, yeah, they earned a regular spot starting with some limited ice time.

Not to mention he gave pretty good shots to Poirier, Sven, Shore, and (IMO) Ortio. He played Grant a fair bit to see what he had (which was pretty good). Kulak got decent ice time.

If you remove last season which has been an outlier over his tenure his record is poor. I have stated long before this that Hartley has had no issues playing young forwards but he's got different criteria for defensemen. He either lacks trust in young defensemen or he simply doesn't like the defensemen Treliving is supplying him from the farm team. Bob's not going to change so we have to accept this but I will stick to my case that a head coach that is going broke for wins better deliver deliver wins and that hasn't been the case for 3/4 seasons now.