[News] UPD: NHL reviewing whether Flames followed concussion protocol for Wideman

[nik-]

Not surprising. This bothers me a whole lot more than any suspension or even what Wideman did.

A player will hardly ever willingly take himself out. If the call is made, he goes.

Black mark on the Flames staff here

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I'm sorry, that's quite the non-sequitur. I made it perfectly clear that what the player reports is irrelevant precisely because they are concussed, and not in the right frame of mind to do a self-assessment. If the guy watching upstairs makes an objective assessment that the player at least needs to be checked and observed, then you do it. No messing around with this stuff. Players need to realize that this is for their benefit and stop playing hero all the time.

Are you going to initiate protocol over every hit in the game?

[Kidder]

Surprised it took this long for anyone to report on this.

We were wondering about the possible concussion from the moment it happened.

A player should not be able to veto the call from a concussion spotter. An obvious flaw to the system that either the NHL or the Flames deserve flack over.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

Are you going to initiate protocol over every hit in the game?

No. Clearly they don't call down after every hit as it is, but if the player is acting irrationally, dazed, wobbly, whatever they're looking for, you better believe that they need to at least check it out. It's far too important to be relaxed about it.

Worst case scenario the player misses a few shifts. That shouldn't be the end of the world.

[Igottago]

Yup, the Flames will take a lot of heat for this but I'm sure it happens every night in the NHL...although usually a linesman isn't bowled over at the same time.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by nik-

Not surprising. This bothers me a whole lot more than any suspension or even what Wideman did.

A player will hardly ever willingly take himself out. If the call is made, he goes.

Black mark on the Flames staff here

NHLPA protecting their members, one concussion at a time.

[To Be Quite Honest]

Perhaps the NHL are in damage control and they are making a huge deal of it to keep concussion issues and future lawsuits completely separate? Just spit balling.

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

No. Clearly they don't call down after every hit as it is, but if the player is acting irrationally, dazed, wobbly, whatever they're looking for, you better believe that they need to at least check it out. It's far too important to be relaxed about it.

Worst case scenario the player misses a few shifts. That shouldn't be the end of the world.

But sometimes a concussion is symptom-free until later on. Hence Wideman is able to tap his stick and tell the trainers that he's fine. Likewise, the official finishes the game.

As with pain meds, the addicted mind is the one reporting the pain.

[kirant]

Originally Posted by Karl

Wow. This is bad on the whole organization and Wideman.

I would suggest that it's not on the whole organization but certainly on anybody who has power to remove Wideman from the game as well as the NHL...whatever groups that is. Wideman's repeated refusals for a check up would imply that the medical staff wanted him to go through the protocol despite the denial. Whatever group opted to go against that, be it the coaching staff or Wideman himself (kind of obvious there), looks in a bit of trouble. This first group for sure include Hartley in the group as he played Wideman in a regular manner despite the possible concussion. Past that, however, I'm not familiar enough with the Flames' structure to know who could override Wideman's desire to continue playing.

What I think this highlights is a specific weakness in the NHL protocol...that a player must willingly agree to go as it's in their best medical interest or, baring that, the coach must force his hand on the issue and not play the possibly concussed player until a check up. The NHL should change the rules to prevent this sort of loophole by giving the spotter more power to override the player if they are serious about this system.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

But sometimes a concussion is symptom-free until later on. Hence Wideman is able to tap his stick and tell the trainers that he's fine. Likewise, the official finishes the game.

As with pain meds, the addicted mind is the one reporting the pain.

http://bjsm.bmj.com/content/47/5/259.full.pdf

There is so much more that goes into concussion assessment than just what the patient reports, but basically if they have a concussion they will report over a certain threshold. Some of these are objective tests too, so there's plenty for a trainer to evaluate them on. However, both player and trainer need a quiet space to notice the changes.

It's really not the same thing at all when it comes to pain medication, which is chemical addiction, so I wish you would stop using that analogy.

[killer_carlson]

say what you want about the guy, but you have to respect him for being up front and clear in telling the hearing that he denied treatment and told the trainers he did not need help.

There are 560,000 reasons why he would say otherwise. But he told the truth and in doing so saves these guys careers.

I dare say that others would not be so truthful in the same situation.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

Players are not doctors. They do not have the ability to assess themselves, especially directly after an incident that could affect their judgement.

Concussion protocol needs to be a mandate, regardless of what the player wants. Too stupid to know what's good for them I guess. These injuries aren't obvious and if not properly assessed at the time, could be extremely hazardous for the player both in the short and long term.

Quite frankly, this is going to be a huge story because of what happened surrounding the concussion. I think the media needs to make a big deal about this because obviously the culture in the NHL is still pretty obtuse on this topic.

Agreed.

An independent doctor with the authority to pull players from the game is the only way to handle this. Concussion spotters (with what training exactly?) from the press box with no authority is kind of a joke. I think that all sports leagues have proven that players, coaches, trainers and even doctors affiliated with the team will not responsibly handle head injuries. I'm not sure what the NHL is hoping to accomplish unless they are all just a bunch of old school CTE/head injury deniers.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

say what you want about the guy, but you have to respect him for being up front and clear in telling the hearing that he denied treatment and told the trainers he did not need help.

There are 560,000 reasons why he would say otherwise. But he told the truth and in doing so saves these guys careers.

I dare say that others would not be so truthful in the same situation.

The situation was self-created though. If Wideman swallowed his pride and followed protocol the optics would be entirely different.

How different would this thing be if right after he got off the ice, he went down the hall? Instead Flames trainers look incompetent and he's out 500k

[dustygoon]

League lays down concussion protocol.

Team follows it despite it being a useless protocol.

Team loses services of Wideman for 20 games.

If league tries to fine the team/take away a draft pick, Burke will unravel. Client Eastwood in The Unforgiven type unravel.

[calgarywinning]

The PA is going to have a field day with it, because the judgement was way offside and the evidence is not conclusive. Be professional. The benefit of the doubt, apologies and past conduct matter.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by saillias

The situation was self-created though. If Wideman swallowed his pride and followed protocol the optics would be entirely different.

How different would this thing be if right after he got off the ice, he went down the hall? Instead Flames trainers look incompetent and he's out 500k

So you're asking him to act differently than nearly every professional athlete?

I believe this sort of thing happens nearly every night in the NHL, and that the current protocol is a joke. You can't rely people with a vested interested in circumventing the protocol to follow it. Players want to play - it's their livelihood and they feel accountable to their teammates. Coaches want to win; it's their livelihood. Medical staff have to walk a fine line; if they are seen to be over-cautious, then they won't be working for the team much longer.

This culture won't change overnight, and it's on the league and the PA to take the power out of the hands of the people who simply can't be objective in the situation. Expenses be damned, there should be a head specialist at every game that is paid by and reports only to the league. Players absolutely need to be protected from themselves.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by saillias

The situation was self-created though. If Wideman swallowed his pride and followed protocol the optics would be entirely different.

How different would this thing be if right after he got off the ice, he went down the hall? Instead Flames trainers look incompetent and he's out 500k

If the NHL would grow some balls and man up to force players to follow their protocol the optics would be different.

Your asking a guy who is not in his right mind to suck up his pride. It's not even about pride at that point. He might not have even remembered what just happened . He had a concussion you tend to forget what happened.

I had a concussion happen after riding the North Shore on my bike but I was told I rode 20km back to the truck. I don't remember an of this but when people tried to stop me I apparently just said "No I'm fine lets just get back to the shuttle". I missed 2 and a half weeks of school from this. I'm told the doctor said I should have not even have gotten up from it and I was lucky I didn't worsen my condition.

Players should have no say at this point. Outside medical professionals need to be activated in these cases.

The NHL should be the ones to provide this . Its their league.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

say what you want about the guy, but you have to respect him for being up front and clear in telling the hearing that he denied treatment and told the trainers he did not need help.

There are 560,000 reasons why he would say otherwise. But he told the truth and in doing so saves these guys careers.

I dare say that others would not be so truthful in the same situation.

Yeah I was very pleased by that, I'm proud that Wideman did that. The doctors got a tough job down there and its a fast paced game, there's a ton of pressure win in the game today when the coach wants his players out there and the players aren't sure whats goin on, and there's a lot on the line and players get bonked all the time... while I do think the NHL has a long ways to go in working through this maze of concussion spotting, I'm sure those guys (doctors) down there are doing the best they can. Some people above just throw out "oh someone's gonna get fired" which is kind of callous, real careers can be wrecked in a wrongful witch hunt.

[Vulcan]

From an interview with Eric Lindros.

Eric Lindros: Well that one ended up being my shoulder. But that’s the crazy part. I know it sounds ridiculous but sometimes the worst person to ask is the person who is concussed. I mean, you know when you’re flat out out. I remember being in Pittsburgh thinking that I was traded in the showers because I thought that we were playing at home, and these were not the showers we had at the First Union Center. It varies from situation to situation.

http://thehockeywriters.com/intervie...n-rumors-more/

I remember when Lindros had his concussion his GM Bobby Clarke was less than sympathetic.

In a twisted way, that knowledge and the caution it fostered in Eric made him something of an outsider. Nowadays, most hockey fans applaud and defend Penguins star Sidney Crosby for having the guts and perspective to sit as long as he needed to fully recover from a concussion. A dozen years ago, when Lindros tried to do that? The reaction was, shall we say, slightly less enlightened. The media snickered about his manhood and mocked him as a head case. Fans threw pacifiers on the ice. And when Lindros and his parents dared to question the Flyers medical staff after the team first sent Eric to a migraine specialist in March 2000 instead of a neurologist who focused on concussions, the old-school Clarke flipped. He isolated Lindros from the team, at one point going weeks without speaking to his injured star. Then he stripped him of his captaincy.

Looking back, that's one of the moments of his experience that irks Lindros the most and makes him worry about today's nonmarquee players: The pressure to play, the alienation from teammates and the other mind games used to get players back on the ice -- those things worked on him, in large part because he let them. "The athletes are the worst advocates for this crap by not disclosing enough," he says. "Who wants to admit deficiencies and put that X on your back? Are you gonna take yourself out? Because now it's who do they have in the minors to replace you? It's a sh -- y business in that regard."

http://espn.go.com/nhl/story/_/page/...-espn-magazine

[fastpuck]

Having had multiple concussions from hockey, from my experience, your ability to make decisions is really compromised. I backed our truck into a light post and a car not something that I would ever do, but happened on a day that I was recovering and stressed. What Wideman did looks vicious, but I would agree that if he was suffering from a concussion- which looks possible from the impact before, it is totally believable to me that he wasn't thinking straight.