2015/2016 Barclays Premier League Thread

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Locke

At Barca he was gifted with a solid core group that were already there as well as another group coming up from the youth team that he'd already been working with and its not like he was taking on some poor team with no money or decent players that was fighting a relegation battle, they came in 3rd.

Ditto for Bayern and now ditto again for City.

So what if he had a solid core group?
I'll ask you the same question. Were Barca just going to be a dominant force regardless? Is it as simple as that? A monkey could have managed that team?

Would United have had all their success regardless of Fergie too? I mean he was gifted with half his team coming from the class of 92.

He deserves a LOT of credit for what he did at Barca. He dominated there.

Bayern. Agreed that moving to a boring one team league was strange.

City? He'll have his work cut out for him. To say he's choosing it because it's the squad most set up to win is way out there. Forwards they have yes. Midfield and D, he's going to have to rebuild.

Originally Posted by Locke

City were going to do well with or without him

Is that so? That why they are looking good to win the PL and Europe this year?

What's your definition of "do well"?

[devo22]

Originally Posted by Bagor

You're making my point for me.

not really, no. I mean yeah, they had a bad La Liga season in 07/08, but he still inherited an amazing squad. That was the same squad that had won both La Liga and the CL in 2006. They only lost the 2007 La Liga because of the head-to-head results and made the 2008 CL semifinals. He might have got rid of Ronaldinho and Deco, but he still inherited a 20-year-old Messi and a 23-year-old Iniesta. In the end, I can't think of a single rookie coach who has walked into a better situation for his first job ever. That's not Guardiolas fault at all, but let's not forget all that. Barcelonas success was not all down to Guardiola, on the contrary ... of course he was a big factor, but they also reaped the rewards of an outstanding youth setup at the time and having generational talents like Messi and Iniesta in their system.

And no, I'm not suggesting they would have won the treble in any case. But that would have turned into a world-class side in any case, that's for sure. They simply had too much talent in their system.

Originally Posted by Bagor

Would United have had all their success regardless of Fergie too? I mean he was gifted with half his team coming from the class of 92.

man, that's an incredible insult to Ferguson. Different situations here ... Ferguson came to United in 86 and completely reshaped the youth setup - that's why the class of 92 happened and that's why Ferguson reaped the rewards later. Guardiola, like I said, just inherited a great squad with a young Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Puyol, Eto'o and so on. How anyone would compare those two situations is beyond me, sorry.

Originally Posted by Bagor

He deserves a LOT of credit for what he did at Barca. He dominated there.

sure. Nobody is debating that. But let's not pretend he completely built that team because he surely didn't.

Originally Posted by Bagor

City? He'll have his work cut out for him. To say he's choosing it because it's the squad most set up to win is way out there. Forwards they have yes. Midfield and D, he's going to have to rebuild.

easy. He'll have a ####load of money available, so you can count on him getting either John Stones or Aymeric Laporte in - both young centre backs who are strong on the ball and who I'd call typical Guardiola centre backs. That's pretty much all he has to do concerning that back 4, they have quite a bit of depth there. In midfield he'll surely ship out Yaya, which is overdue anyway. Finding a couple good midfielders there won't be a huge challenge either. The team is pretty much set in attacking midfield and up front ... my guess is Guardiola will bring in 5-6 guys in the summer for a lot of money and the team is set.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Guardiola now gets to prove how good he is. He will also have a ton of pressure on him and obviously the UK press is a different animal than Spain or Germany. So we'll see how he handles it, it's a good situation but it would have been a good situation at United or Chelsea or Arsenal. No matter what he was gonna have tons of resources, maybe United and Chelsea are more work but not that much more.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by devo22

And no, I'm not suggesting they would have won the treble in any case. But that would have turned into a world-class side in any case, that's for sure. They simply had too much talent in their system.

Simple as that then? Talent alone gets it done?

Originally Posted by devo22

man, that's an incredible insult to Ferguson. Different situations here ... Ferguson came to United in 86 and completely reshaped the youth setup - that's why the class of 92 happened and that's why Ferguson reaped the rewards later. Guardiola, like I said, just inherited a great squad with a young Messi, Iniesta, Xavi, Puyol, Eto'o and so on. How anyone would compare those two situations is beyond me, sorry.

The analogy is simple and an insult to no-one. If you want to claim that Guardiola lucked out by having a good crop of younguns come through then Fergie was blessed with similar good fortune having a once in a lifetime crop.

Because all I'm hearing is that having the players is enough. Management counts for little. Ask Moyes that when he inherited a team that cantered to a title.

Originally Posted by devo22

sure. Nobody is debating that. But let's not pretend he completely built that team because he surely didn't.

Forget about building the team. The f-a-c-t is that he got the team to perform. You just cannot argue with his dominance.
He did not inherit a dominating team. He created a dominating team.

Originally Posted by devo22

easy.
my guess is Guardiola will bring in 5-6 guys in the summer for a lot of money and the team is set.

Yeah. Easy. Like van Gaal easy?
Because it's as simple as shelling out coin for the personnel and you're "set"?

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Guardiola now gets to prove how good he is. He will also have a ton of pressure on him and obviously the UK press is a different animal than Spain or Germany. So we'll see how he handles it, it's a good situation but it would have been a good situation at United or Chelsea or Arsenal. No matter what he was gonna have tons of resources, maybe United and Chelsea are more work but not that much more.

Yeah, and if he had jumped ship last minute to United or Chelsea the same arguments would be made that he was taking the easy route.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by Bagor

The analogy is simple and an insult to no-one. If you want to claim that Guardiola lucked out by having a good crop of younguns come through then Fergie was blessed with similar good fortune having a once in a lifetime crop.

well if you can't see the difference between a manager who's reaping results 10 years after overhauling the youth setup and a manager who walks in and gets freaking Messi and Iniesta, then there's really no sense in discussing here, sorry.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by devo22

well if you can't see the difference between a manager who's reaping results 10 years after overhauling the youth setup and a manager who walks in and gets freaking Messi and Iniesta, then there's really no sense in discussing here, sorry.

Enough of the deflection with Fergie and address the point(s). Besides you make it sound like a wonderful magical overhaul that created an academy that kept on producing when in fact they had that once in a lifetime group and that's it. Who else was a product of this overhaul?

But that's all besides the point.

My point is talent needs to be managed. Guided. Directed.
Yours seems to be that talent will win regardless and that Moyes, Rodgers or van Gaal would have dominated with that team they were so good.
And then, if you haven't got it then all you have to do is throw a load of cash about and the silverware automatically follows.

[devo22]

I'm not deflecting in any way. You were the one who cynically brought up the Ferguson comparison which was simply laughable, in whatever way you want to slice it. One manager spent 27 years at the same club and won 13 national titles, 2 CLs and a ####load of other trophies despite completely rebuilding his squads numerous times during his tenure. The other manager has spent a total of 7 years in management for two clubs and both times got a fantastic squad right of the bat without a serious need for rebuilding. Neither Ferguson nor Moyes nor Rodgers nor van Gaal nor whoever you want to choose walked in and got Messi/Iniesta/Xavi/Eto'o/Puyol or Robben/Ribery/Müller/Alaba/Neuer.

You're seriously missing all the points. NOBODY is questioning Guardiolas abilities to guide and direct a squad. Nobody. You just took objection to the claims that Guardiola inherited a brilliant squad in both of his jobs during his career, and honestly, that is simply not debatable in my opinion. That Barcelona team was full of young world-class players already and the Bayern team had just won the treble. My (and Locke's and some others') point is that he chooses the easiest option yet again. Like I said, it's completely understandable, I'd make the same decision for sure.

Guardiola is an outstanding manager, but let's not make him bigger than he is - he has his flaws too, just like every other manager. He'll get results for 3-4 years and then that's that, he's admitted as much himself. There's a lot of Bayern fans who are not sad at all that he leaves - on the contrary, many fans blame him and his training for the numerous injuries they suffer every year and think he's a horrible man manager. Barcelona won the CL two years before Guardiola took over and they won it again after he left. Bayern won the CL before Guardiola took over and they'll surely win it again after he leaves.

Prediction (and you can quote me on that): Guardiola will spend a lot of money, have some success at City (read: a couple PL titles, but no CL title), leave after his contract ends and then ride off into the Qatari sunset and take over their national team in 2019.

[nik-]

ugh ... those names. And you didn't even mention Busquets.

Jesus Christ I hate Barcelona.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by devo22

You're seriously missing all the points. NOBODY is questioning Guardiolas abilities to guide and direct a squad. Nobody. You just took objection to the claims that Guardiola inherited a brilliant squad in both of his jobs during his career, and honestly, that is simply not debatable in my opinion. .

No.
My point is simple. As good as that squad was it was not a dominating team. He created a dominating team.
What I'm reading from you is that regardless of management, talent will always win out and it is as simple as throwing $ to buy talent.

Originally Posted by devo22

Guardiola is an outstanding manager, but let's not make him bigger than he is

I'm not making him bigger than he is simply acknowledging what he did at Barca.

Originally Posted by devo22

My (and Locke's and some others') point is that he chooses the easiest option yet again.

And my point is that if he backtracked and chose United or Chelsea the same argument would be made.
He could go to United and spend $ and challenge, same with Chelsea and to a lesser extent with Arsenal. What's the big easy option about City? Why are they so clearly the easy option?

So here's my question regarding the easy option that you and Locke and others suggest he took.
Given that you could apply this statement to United, Arsenal and Chelsea

Originally Posted by devo22

my guess is Guardiola will bring in 5-6 guys in the summer for a lot of money and the team is set.

just what is it about City that makes them the easy option?

Originally Posted by devo22

Prediction (and you can quote me on that): Guardiola will spend a lot of money, have some success at City (read: a couple PL titles, but no CL title), leave after his contract ends

Not the boldest of predictions. I agree with it.

[SuperMatt18]

Any coach that would have inherited Messi, and the Spanish National Team core (Puyol, Xavi, Iniesta, Pique, Busquets) coming into 2008 would have had great success.

A large core of his team won the major tournaments in 2008, 2010, and 2012, when he wasn't coaching them. Plus then you get to throw Messi on that core on top of that all. Team was also successful in the seasons before he got there, and immediately after he left.

At Bayern he took over a team that won the treble, pillaged their top competitors of their top talent, and still hasn't been able to get back to the finals of the Champions League. And once again he was able to choose from pretty much the German national team who had just won a World Cup when going to select his side.

City is the easiest option because they are going to have the most $$$ to spend, they will have the lowest pressure from the fan base (United, Chelsea would both be tougher), and of the teams mentioned they have the best base line of players to start from.

Also think he avoided United and Chelsea because he didn't want the inevitable comparisons to Fergie and Mourinho that would have come with those appointments. No history or great coaches to compare him to at City.

It will be his toughest appointment yet though because he isn't going to have the ability to select from the top players in the world already at his disposal like he was at Bayern or Barca.

[Bagor]

In 2008 Piquet was not a member of the Spanish team. He was surplus to requirements at Manchester United. Same with Busquets. Unheard of prior to 2008.

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by Bagor

In 2008 Piquet was not a member of the Spanish team. He was surplus to requirements at Manchester United. Same with Busquets. Unheard of prior to 2008.

Doesn't change the fact that they became top class players for the Spanish team during that 4 year period.

Both were players that started in the Barca youth system, were developed within Barca (over to Man U for a bit for Pique), and then became fixtures on both of the squads. Great work by Pep to give them a shot, but they probably force their way in with any coach.

Think the point people are trying to make is that you could have put a lot of coaches into that set up at Barca, and the same set up at Bayern Munich and they would have likely had very similar success.

The guy isn't turning around teams that are train wrecks and building them into Champions League teams. He is taking Champions League teams and keeping them Champions league teams, while having the best players in the world at his disposal.

Very easy to argue that Bayern Munich were just as good a team before he got there, and that Barcelona has not missed a beat since he left.

[d_phaneuf]

I dont even know how this is an argument

the 2009 CL final in Pep's first year

the starting XI was

Henry/Eto'o/Messi
Xavi/Busquets/Iniesta
Sylvinho/Puyol/Toure/Alves
Valdes

what do all of those players have in common except Pique? they were at the club before Pep arrived, Busquets if you want to add a 2nd, but he wasn't 'unheard of' he was the captain of Barcelona B

[d_phaneuf]

Originally Posted by Bagor

You're making my point for me.

Which is. He took an unsuccessful team that had won sweet fata all and turned them into a dynasty. And, just for fun he got rid of Deco and Ronaldinho (and more) in the process.

Lucky Pep, inheriting that bunch of winners.

Let me ask you this. Are you suggesting that Barca would have gone from a trophy less season to a first ever Spanish treble regardless of who was in charge? It's as simple as that.

an unsuccessful team that in the 3 years before had won the CL once and gone to the semi final in another year?

[d_phaneuf]

That's not to say Pep is a bad coach, and many would do the same if they were him

I just don't think he's done anything to prove he's one of the best in the world, yet if you're Man City, he's proven that if given the best players he can drive results

whether that's through players currently there or the 150m the guardian is reporting he will have to spend, so for them it's a smart move

[SuperMatt18]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

an unsuccessful team that in the 3 years before had won the CL once and gone to the semi final in another year?

Not to mention that Messi was then only 20 years old, and was coming into the prime of his career as one of the two best players in the world.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Doesn't change the fact that they became top class players for the Spanish team during that 4 year period.

Both were players that started in the Barca youth system, were developed within Barca, and then became fixtures on both of the squads. Great work by Pep to give them a shot, but they probably force their way in with any coach.

Completely disagree.
Probably force their way in with any coach? Pique couldn't force his way into the United team.

And regarding this Spanish national team argument. If it was so straightforward as having members of the national team from that era =success where did Madrid go wrong?

After all they had a similar representation. Why didn't they dominate at the same level as Barca?

And the Bayern move. I'm not arguing against that. It's a headscratcher to me why he would go to the most boring one team league outside of Scotland.

My point is this. Lots of managers have had very good squads and failed. Look at Brazil. Madrid. He deserves credit for what he achieved at Barca. He dominated.

[devo22]

Originally Posted by Bagor

Completely disagree.
Probably force their way in with any coach? Pique couldn't force his way into the United team.

because he had freaking Vidic and Ferdinand ahead of him. Ferguson was pissed when Pique wanted to leave because he knew he had a lot of talent, but you can't really blame the player for not beating out the best CB pairing at the time.

[Bagor]

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

an unsuccessful team that in the 3 years before had won the CL once and gone to the semi final in another year?

In the context of what he achieved? Yes.
Barcelona did not dominate until he took charge.

Originally Posted by diane_phaneuf

I just don't think he's done anything to prove he's one of the best in the world

Maybe but he sure as hell deserves more credit than he gets for his Barca dominance.