CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

So you're essentially saying West Village doesn't break ground for another seven years as that's what I can find on EV completion (2023)?? By that time the dome will be 45 if given a 5 year build. I just don't see the flames or the city waiting another decade for this to get completed.

I think if the city were to make a drastic decision, shaganappi point golf course would be the perfect place to put an entertainment district with minimal issues to Calgarians and no creosote to worry about. Of course the traffic in the area would still be a mess with westbound bow and southbound crowchild.

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I would rather have two really great neighbourhoods downtown completed at different times than two half-assed projects that suck valuable investment from each other and lead to a Victoria-Park like scenario for the next two decades.

I believe (cannot confirm) the Shaganappi land was gifted to the City under strict instructions. Besides the PR nightmare of getting rid of green space, there would be a pretty big legal battle with respect to the restrictive covenants on that site.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Barnes

The magical date is when the EV is complete. They don't want to compete against themselves. It's kinda crazy that you continue to argue.

And this is an excellent plan for the city. It ensures that we have room to grow, within the inner city. If the city were to try to develop everything now, it would do so at existing demand levels, which would fill the East Village with low-density mediocrity. Then, as demand increases, development would be more expensive, because it would require replacing that mediocrity. Better to constrain supply so that East Village develops at a higher density, and the West Village is set aside for growth. Effectively, by doing it this way, we get both the East Village and West Village right the first time instead of having to redo both of them a few decades down the road.

[Reneeee]

Valid points. It has caused quite an uproar in the NE with the Mccall lake closure and ultimate backtrack.

From an impartial citizens standpoint, it just seems like the city and the flames are so far apart that this proposal needs to either be scrapped or the city needs to put it to a plebiscite

I've lost faith in our mayors ability to act in a civil manner with any private companies.

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[getbak]

We don't really know how far apart the city and the Flames are. This is still the sabre-rattling stage of things.

Once the environmental report gets back, we'll all have a lot better idea about what can realistically be done with the land, and how much it will cost.


If the report comes back and says everything is fine and the current containment plan is still working and will remain safe for another 20 years as long as it remains the way it is, it's a very different conversation moving forward than if the report says that the land needs to be cleaned up immediately and that the best solution is to remove all the soil and cover it with tonnes of concrete.

If it's the second option, the idea of putting an arena/stadium complex on top of all that concrete is an easier sell. If it's the first, then the Flames will need to convince everyone that it's in anyone's best interest but their own to spend the money now, and to spend it on CalgaryNext.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by getbak

We don't really know how far apart the city and the Flames are. This is still the sabre-rattling stage of things.

Once the environmental report gets back, we'll all have a lot better idea about what can realistically be done with the land, and how much it will cost.


If the report comes back and says everything is fine and the current containment plan is still working and will remain safe for another 20 years as long as it remains the way it is, it's a very different conversation moving forward than if the report says that the land needs to be cleaned up immediately and that the best solution is to remove all the soil and cover it with tonnes of concrete.

If it's the second option, the idea of putting an arena/stadium complex on top of all that concrete is an easier sell. If it's the first, then the Flames will need to convince everyone that it's in anyone's best interest but their own to spend the money now, and to spend it on CalgaryNext.

You don't dig up contaminated soil and fill it in with concrete, do you realize the creosote has been found in a few basements across the river? creosote is a nightmare, it seeps deep and in all directions. if in fact the kensington contamination's came from this site it means it traveled under the river basin and is now 10's of meters deep.

It will need to be dug up and sent to a hazardous waste landfill and for every space not a building it will need clean soil for replacement.

Depending on the PPM of creosote in the soil it could be 10's of millions in disposal fees alone.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by T@T

You don't dig up contaminated soil and fill it in with concrete, do you realize the creosote has been found in a few basements across the river? creosote is a nightmare, it seeps deep and in all directions. if in fact the kensington contamination's came from this site it means it traveled under the river basin and is now 10's of meters deep.

It will need to be dug up and sent to a hazardous waste landfill and for every space not a building it will need clean soil for replacement.

Depending on the PPM of creosote in the soil it could be 10's of millions in disposal fees alone.

I think that getback is just trying to say it is foolish to jump on either side until we understand how many 10's of millions this will cost to clean.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Kavvy

I think that getback is just trying to say it is foolish to jump on either side until we understand how many 10's of millions this will cost to clean.

Fair enough, I should just keep my mouth shut anyway as I absolutely hate the project in that area with or without the contamination problem.

[RougeUnderoos]

Interesting little article here... asking economists if building a stadium is good for cities. It's NFL-centric, but applies to every sport I'm sure.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2016/0...in-for-cities/

All of the economists noted that if you want to go ahead and build a stadium just because you think sports are keen and not in search of elusive economic benefits, go right ahead.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Interesting little article here... asking economists if building a stadium is good for cities. It's NFL-centric, but applies to every sport I'm sure.

http://www.fieldofschemes.com/2016/0...in-for-cities/

All of the economists noted that if you want to go ahead and build a stadium just because you think sports are keen and not in search of elusive economic benefits, go right ahead.

Great read! I look forward to cheering for the Markham Flames, Seattle Flames, Portland Flames or whatever name they go by when they move.

[Mr.Coffee]

Whatever, they're not going to leave. Worst case and they do, a new team will come to Calgary build a rink and play.

If you're an NHL owner or want to be, I find it hard to believe Calgary wouldn't be amongst some of the best NHL markets to be in.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by New Era

Great read! I look forward to cheering for the Markham Flames, Seattle Flames, Portland Flames or whatever name they go by when they move.

Hey man, if you want to ignore it, go to town. If you want to cheer for a league that thinks Portland is a good hockey market and Calgary is not, that'll be fun too.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

Whatever, they're not going to leave. Worst case and they do, a new team will come to Calgary build a rink and play.

If you're an NHL owner or want to be, I find it hard to believe Calgary wouldn't be amongst some of the best NHL markets to be in.

St. Louis, San Diego and Oakland fans were all saying the same thing. Don't discount the desires of an owner to make a quick buck. Calgary is very fortunate to have the owner group they currently have. That ownership group can change so nothing is guaranteed, especially if a better offer comes calling. Calgary is a great market, but so are a lot of other markets. I seriously doubt Calgary could compete with Markham if that was a possibility, especially if the potential for a new building dies.

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Hey man, if you want to ignore it, go to town. If you want to cheer for a league that thinks Portland is a good hockey market and Calgary is not, that'll be fun too.

See, I don't care where the team is. I don't live in Calgary so it doesn't matter to me where the team was. In fact, if the team were south of the border it would probably mean I could attend more games as travel options would increase substantially. Calgary is the one that could be the biggest loser here, no one else. Quote all the studies that suggest the city should tell the Flames to #### themselves all you want, but if the owners tire of the crap they have plenty of options to satisfy people that share your interests. I'll still be cheering for the Flames, where ever they are, but you'll be crying because you lost your team. Ask the Jets fans how hard it was to see the team shuffle off to Phoenix and how lucky they feel to have the team back again. Then ask them if they want to go through that again.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Reneeee

So you're essentially saying West Village doesn't break ground for another seven years as that's what I can find on EV completion (2023)?? By that time the dome will be 45 if given a 5 year build. I just don't see the flames or the city waiting another decade for this to get completed.

Then they might want to consider another location.

Originally Posted by New Era

Calgary is a great market, but so are a lot of other markets. I seriously doubt Calgary could compete with Markham if that was a possibility, especially if the potential for a new building dies.

See, I don't care where the team is. I don't live in Calgary so it doesn't matter to me where the team was.

There are at least 20 teams in the league that couldn't compete with Markham. We know some have tried publicly to move, and doubtless several others have explored the possibilities behind closed doors. The NHL isn't granting Calgary's owners this magical pill before Phoenix, Florida, Carolina, Nashville, etc. I've explined previously, but I think the threat to move is a about 0.0001% valid, and I wouldn't care if lightning struck and it happened anyway.

It's pretty easy to root for a shiny new building for your favourite team when it will have zero impact on your life or how your city's tax dollars are allocated.

[Kavvy]

lol nm i was too blunt

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by New Era

St. Louis, San Diego and Oakland fans were all saying the same thing. Don't discount the desires of an owner to make a quick buck. Calgary is very fortunate to have the owner group they currently have. That ownership group can change so nothing is guaranteed, especially if a better offer comes calling. Calgary is a great market, but so are a lot of other markets. I seriously doubt Calgary could compete with Markham if that was a possibility, especially if the potential for a new building dies.



See, I don't care where the team is. I don't live in Calgary so it doesn't matter to me where the team was. In fact, if the team were south of the border it would probably mean I could attend more games as travel options would increase substantially. Calgary is the one that could be the biggest loser here, no one else. Quote all the studies that suggest the city should tell the Flames to #### themselves all you want, but if the owners tire of the crap they have plenty of options to satisfy people that share your interests. I'll still be cheering for the Flames, where ever they are, but you'll be crying because you lost your team. Ask the Jets fans how hard it was to see the team shuffle off to Phoenix and how lucky they feel to have the team back again. Then ask them if they want to go through that again.

I'm a Calgary resident, not born and raised. Have always been a flames fan. In reality I highly doubt they would move to another city. But if they did move it would be a huge loss to the city. However as mentioned we are lucky the owners are local and dedicated. That's would certainly help in keeping them here despite an outdated arena.

Truth be told, in the sports realm for the city, it's the only one I actually care about and support In this town. I'd still be a flames fan regardless, wherever they move. Heck, if a new team replaced the flames after a move, I'd still be a Flames fan wherever they are located over any new franchise anyways.

Get the arena built as we will need a new one eventually sooner or later.

[Kavvy]

Originally Posted by soulchoice

I'm a Calgary resident, not born and raised. Have always been a flames fan. In reality I highly doubt they would move to another city. But if they did move it would be a huge loss to the city. However as mentioned we are lucky the owners are local and dedicated. That's would certainly help in keeping them here despite an outdated arena.

Truth be told, in the sports realm for the city, it's the only one I actually care about and support In this town. I'd still be a flames fan regardless, wherever they move. Heck, if a new team replaced the flames after a move, I'd still be a Flames fan wherever they are located over any new franchise anyways.

Get the arena built as we will need a new one eventually sooner or later.

Why are we lucky to have the owners we have?

I have never understood this.

Bettman comes to town - boooooooo

Owners make a presentation - Yayayayay

One and the same?

[Strange Brew]

[QUOTE=soulchoice;5607802]I'm a Calgary resident, not born and raised. Have always been a flames fan. In reality I highly doubt they would move to another city. But if they did move it would be a huge loss to the city. However as mentioned we are lucky the owners are local and dedicated. That's would certainly help in keeping them here despite an outdated arena.

Truth be told, in the sports realm for the city, it's the only one I actually care about and support In this town. I'd still be a flames fan regardless, wherever they move. Heck, if a new team replaced the flames after a move, I'd still be a Flames fan wherever they are located over any new franchise anyways.

Get the arena built as we will need a new one eventually sooner or later.[/QUOT

I don't live in Calgary anymore but still visit. If the Flames were to move to Markham and become the Markham Beavers I don't suspect I would be a fan of the team for long. Once a few of my favorite players had left they would just be another team. Surprised New Era and others feel differently.

Frankly I would lose a lot of interest in the NHL generally.

[soulchoice]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don't live in Calgary anymore but still visit. If the Flames were to move to Markham and become the Markham Beavers I don't suspect I would be a fan of the team for long. Once a few of my favorite players had left they would just be another team. Surprised New Era and others feel differently.

Frankly I would lose a lot of interest in the NHL generally.

I guess its because I am a fan of the franchise, a few family members were Atlanta Flames/Habs supporters in the 70s, hence I started liking the flames as a kid when they were in Calgary during the 80s. I am not a flames fan because of the mere fact they are a local/Calgary based team.

[soulchoice]

dbl

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by New Era

See, I don't care where the team is. I don't live in Calgary so it doesn't matter to me where the team was. In fact, if the team were south of the border it would probably mean I could attend more games as travel options would increase substantially. Calgary is the one that could be the biggest loser here, no one else. Quote all the studies that suggest the city should tell the Flames to #### themselves all you want, but if the owners tire of the crap they have plenty of options to satisfy people that share your interests. I'll still be cheering for the Flames, where ever they are, but you'll be crying because you lost your team. Ask the Jets fans how hard it was to see the team shuffle off to Phoenix and how lucky they feel to have the team back again. Then ask them if they want to go through that again.

Fair enough. You don't care. I don't care if you are willing to be ripped off either, so we're even on that score.

I won't be crying if I don't get robbed, so that's not a concern.

As for asking questions, we could ask how smart it was to move the Jets to Phoenix. When we get that answer, then we could ask whoever decided it was a good idea to put another team in Atlanta if he still thinks that was a good idea. Then I guess we could also ask how realistic it is how the NHL, or anyone with pockets deep enough, would think it's a good idea to move the Flames.