The outcome of this case is clear. The initial use of force that killed Yatim was found to be legal and justified, the actions that took place after were found to not be justified.
Because he got himself within range (instead of maintaining that distance) and even antagonized the shooter. The prosecution built part of the case on Forcillo being a bully. Instead of de-escalating the situation, he approached and threatened Yatim in a game of macho showmanship, verbally daring Yatim to step forward in order to shoot him.
The jury determined that even with this situation, he was justified in the first volley to disarm the immediate threat in carrying out his duty. The second volley however, was attempted murder as he emptied his Glock into the body when Yatim was already down. The cops then tasered the body.
Regardless of what you think, this was done completely in the wrong order and the police neglected their duty to protect the public (of which Yatim was a member). There wasn't even anybody else on the bus.
Part of Forcillo's defense was that he was taught to always do what it takes to get home safety. The prosecution says that is not codified in any police practice and violates police principles. I wonder if that's partly due to his American police schooling.
Last edited by Hack&Lube; 01-26-2016 at 10:28 AM.
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I'm a foster parent of, essentially, gang involved teenage boys.
I routinely deal with, three or four times a year at least, teenage kids who are angry, high and armed with, mostly, my kitchen knives, they're angry at me, the other kids in the house or someone out to get them at the front door, I don't have a gun or a bullet proof vest or a can of bear spray and I don't need any of that.
All you need is enough balls to keep talking to the kid, that's all. Cops have become adverse to getting their hands dirty or waiting situations out,they should probably not all have guns, it would make them better cops.
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I attended a trial a few weeks ago of a guy that stabbed his elderly mother to death and wounded his two year old niece.
A very large Asian guy with obvious mental health issues, the VPD cops that attended had every reason to shoot the guy, he was in the hall of the apartment drenched in blood, there were two bodies on the floor and he was threatening the cops.
When the taser didn't work the senior officer disarmed the guy by using his nightstick, I think it's no coincidence that the cop had spent ten years working as a cop in Gallowshields in the north of England, I found it funny that when asked if he used his nightstick much his reply was 'not much these days, used it all the time back in the U.K.'.
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I'm a foster parent of, essentially, gang involved teenage boys.
I routinely deal with, three or four times a year at least, teenage kids who are angry, high and armed with, mostly, my kitchen knives, they're angry at me, the other kids in the house or someone out to get them at the front door, I don't have a gun or a bullet proof vest or a can of bear spray and I don't need any of that.
All you need is enough balls to keep talking to the kid, that's all. Cops have become adverse to getting their hands dirty or waiting situations out,they should probably not all have guns, it would make them better cops.
By all means, maintain open communication however if your hand is forced (he's gonna charge and stab you) as the old saying goes, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
I attended a trial a few weeks ago of a guy that stabbed his elderly mother to death and wounded his two year old niece.
A very large Asian guy with obvious mental health issues, the VPD cops that attended had every reason to shoot the guy, he was in the hall of the apartment drenched in blood, there were two bodies on the floor and he was threatening the cops.
When the taser didn't work the senior officer disarmed the guy by using his nightstick, I think it's no coincidence that the cop had spent ten years working as a cop in Gallowshields in the north of England, I found it funny that when asked if he used his nightstick much his reply was 'not much these days, used it all the time back in the U.K.'.
I have a hard time believing this is true. VPD is a switched on department and wouldn't likely wouldn't tolerate Cowboys like that in their ranks. To put yourself at such risk is just stupid.
I have a hard time believing this is true. VPD is a switched on department and wouldn't likely wouldn't tolerate Cowboys like that in their ranks. To put yourself at such risk is just stupid.
I sat in the Main Street court, I was waiting for one of my kids to come up, ironically on a assault with a knife charge, this was the case before his.
By all means, maintain open communication however if your hand is forced (he's gonna charge and stab you) as the old saying goes, I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6.
Ever considered that it's attitudes like this that will make you a bad cop.
Ultimately both you and I are in jobs that require we risk our personal safety in order to be effective, if I can work with the kind of kids that you arrest, at 54 with no radio, no back up, no gun or vets or spray or tazer, why can't you take a chance on getting the odd knock.
I'm the one that could die, you will never be killed by a knife, you could be seriously hurt but there's literally no chance you die, your tooled up, wearing a vest with all kinds of back up.
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I sat in the Main Street court, I was waiting for one of my kids to come up, ironically on a assault with a knife charge, this was the case before his.
Okay, I'll believe you when you say it's real, it still doesn't make it any less stupid and quit frankly I wouldn't work with someone like that.
Ever considered that it's attitudes like this that will make you a bad cop.
Ultimately both you and I are in jobs that require we risk our personal safety in order to be effective, if I can work with the kind of kids that you arrest, at 54 with no radio, no back up, no gun or vets or spray or tazer, why can't you take a chance on getting the odd knock.
I'm the one that could die, you will never be killed by a knife, you could be seriously hurt but there's literally no chance you die, your tooled up, wearing a vest with all kinds of back up.
So hold up, now I'm a bad cop because I wouldn't trust a high, angry person holding a knife in close proximity to me?
I'm actually worried for your well being if you feel that getting stabbed is a "knock". You and I will never agree on this. You choose to wilfully talk to a person armed with a knife and under the influence of drugs withour any protection. Good for you pal, but mark my words, it's gonna cost you one day.
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Ever considered that it's attitudes like this that will make you a bad cop.
Ultimately both you and I are in jobs that require we risk our personal safety in order to be effective, if I can work with the kind of kids that you arrest, at 54 with no radio, no back up, no gun or vets or spray or tazer, why can't you take a chance on getting the odd knock.
I'm the one that could die, you will never be killed by a knife, you could be seriously hurt but there's literally no chance you die, your tooled up, wearing a vest with all kinds of back up.
Now you're just trolling. No, bullet resistant vests do not stop edged weapons, Google it. And literally no chance a police officer could die from being stabbed? Google that too while you're at it.
You have a dangerous cowboy mentality.
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I had to ask my wife (she's a criminal defense lawyer as well) you keep shooting at a dead body (that you don't know is dead), it is considered attempted murder.
Too bad the cop's lawyers didn't try and use the Schrödinger's cat defence.
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Now you're just trolling. No, bullet resistant vests do not stop edged weapons, Google it. And literally no chance a police officer could die from being stabbed? Google that too while you're at it.
You have a dangerous cowboy mentality.
Three policeman have died of stabbing in Canada since '85, in the U.S. it's about 1 out of every hundred deaths, to put this in perspective you are far more likely to drown or die in a plane, it's about as frequent as deaths in training.
Of the cops who have died they are pretty well limited to rural officers operating on their own, no urban policeman operating with a partner has, as far as I can find, ever been stabbed to death.
You say one day I will regret my attitude, well no I won't, not because I won't be attacked, I've been attacked before and I have no doubt I will again but that's what I get paid for, that's my job like every youth worker jail guard, mental health worker, we all work with all the same eff ups you work with but with no gun or back up or anything more than our ability to talk our way out of things, that's what we're paid to do and you're right, it's not safe but it has to be done.
I'm not a cowboy, I'm a bog standard social service worker, I realize it's madness to you but there are thousands of us all over Canada that do our work with angry violent people without the capacity to kill them, there are whole police forces that operate this way as well, the UK obviously comes to mind as well as Newfoundland.
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Being an officer I am not going to get into discussions in this thread. I will just say the officers actions in the initial shooting are justified because that is what in fact he is trained to do. I will leave this video here and walk away.
While the 70s training video sure is interesting, no sarcasm btw, why can't the Canadian police employ the UK method show in this video.
While the 70s training video sure is interesting, no sarcasm btw, why can't the Canadian police employ the UK method show in this video.
Because if Forcillo didn't get a chance to shoot him, he might never get another chance to shoot someone.
In defense of Canadian police, other officers on the scene in the Yatim situation seemed like they wanted to take a more measured approach while Forcillo wanted to go in there like Rambo.
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Three policeman have died of stabbing in Canada since '85, in the U.S. it's about 1 out of every hundred deaths, to put this in perspective you are far more likely to drown or die in a plane, it's about as frequent as deaths in training.
Of the cops who have died they are pretty well limited to rural officers operating on their own, no urban policeman operating with a partner has, as far as I can find, ever been stabbed to death.
You say one day I will regret my attitude, well no I won't, not because I won't be attacked, I've been attacked before and I have no doubt I will again but that's what I get paid for, that's my job like every youth worker jail guard, mental health worker, we all work with all the same eff ups you work with but with no gun or back up or anything more than our ability to talk our way out of things, that's what we're paid to do and you're right, it's not safe but it has to be done.
I'm not a cowboy, I'm a bog standard social service worker, I realize it's madness to you but there are thousands of us all over Canada that do our work with angry violent people without the capacity to kill them, there are whole police forces that operate this way as well, the UK obviously comes to mind as well as Newfoundland.
The RNC (Newfoundland) now carry firearms and have for years. I support verbal intervention and less lethal options like taser or bean bag rounds in order to avoid having to shoot someone with a firearm. I've never had to shoot someone and I hope to hell I never do, but there isn't a snowballs chance in hell I would ever walk up to a high, violent person with a knife while unarmed and try to disarm them with my silver tongue. I guess all you Brits are mini Shakespeare's or something....
The RNC (Newfoundland) now carry firearms and have for years. I support verbal intervention and less lethal options like taser or bean bag rounds in order to avoid having to shoot someone with a firearm. I've never had to shoot someone and I hope to hell I never do, but there isn't a snowballs chance in hell I would ever walk up to a high, violent person with a knife while unarmed and try to disarm them with my silver tongue. I guess all you Brits are mini Shakespeare's or something....
This is generally how these conversations go with cops....all of the sudden the guy with the knife is eight feet tall, green and lunging at the cops with innocent babies in between. And the general public is on the Hulk's side. In reality, the guy had a knife, was trapped in a street car, hadn't stabbed anyone else who was in the street car with him, was surrounded by cops with their guns drawn and at the end of the show, only one cop of highly suspect character decided it was time to shoot.
There are dozens of real body cam videos of cops shooing guys with knives in scenarios that make sense. If I were a cop I'd just point to one of those and say this is why we have to shoot people. This Sami Yatim video is not your best example.
This is generally how these conversations go with cops....all of the sudden the guy with the knife is eight feet tall, green and lunging at the cops with innocent babies in between. And the general public is on the Hulk's side. In reality, the guy had a knife, was trapped in a street car, hadn't stabbed anyone else who was in the street car with him, was surrounded by cops with their guns drawn and at the end of the show, only one cop of highly suspect character decided it was time to shoot.
There are dozens of real body cam videos of cops shooing guys with knives in scenarios that make sense. If I were a cop I'd just point to one of those and say this is why we have to shoot people. This Sami Yatim video is not your best example.
I've said in this thread that I'm not supportive of the Yatim shooting and could have been handled a lot better. My posts were in response to AFC saying he goes up to his aggressive, angry, high and armed with a knife clients and tries to talk them down. I'm saying I don't think that's a safe or responsible way to handle those situations.
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The RNC (Newfoundland) now carry firearms and have for years. I support verbal intervention and less lethal options like taser or bean bag rounds in order to avoid having to shoot someone with a firearm. I've never had to shoot someone and I hope to hell I never do, but there isn't a snowballs chance in hell I would ever walk up to a high, violent person with a knife while unarmed and try to disarm them with my silver tongue. I guess all you Brits are mini Shakespeare's or something....
What was the urgency in disarming him at that point? If they had just given him space, then the only person he could have realistically hurt was himself. Another officer just seconds before suggested that they take the time to bring in a taser. Yatim was provoking Forcillo with words and Forcillo got angry enough to be lured in.
I don't like that police generally get piled on after these things. This was one officer that was the problem here, not police in general. I don't like it either though that when things like this happen, the police close ranks. Let's face it, there is a lot of pressure to support each and probably a lot of repercussions for those that speak out.
The prosecution in this case did a good job of making that point. When other officers said they supported Forcillo's actions, they had no explanations for why they weren't the ones pushing the line and why other situations are usually handled differently. It was very contradictory.
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