Know what else has 'regressed' this year?

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by polak

To the people defending Hartley and saying that the defensive, offensive and goaltending issues aren't his fault and that is on the players.... What is a coach responsible for exactly? If he's not responsible for the offense, defense or goaltending then what's Hartley's purpose?

Seems like if you take away those struggles, all he has done is developed a system that is easily defended against by putting bodies in the neutral zone and the league worst special teams...

I can't think of anything positive that he is contributing to this team at this point. Even his track record with our young players is hit and miss.

C'mon man. Brodie, Johnny, Monahan, and Bennett are the team's best players. Who are the misses?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

In polak's world Hartley uses his PS4 controller to control the on ice actions of every player.

Sometimes a team just doesn't have enough talent and no coach is going to turn dust into gold.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

C'mon man. Brodie, Johnny, Monahan, and Bennett are the team's best players. Who are the misses?

Is he doing something that somehow makes him responsible for their success? Johnny was a college superstar and one of the best players to ever play in the NCAA and Bennett and Monahan were highly touted draft picks.

Brodie is the one player you could say he probably had a big role in his emergence but Gio also helps that immensely.

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

In polak's world Hartley uses his PS4 controller to control the one ice actions of every player.

Sometimes a team just doesn't have enough talent and no coach is going to turn dust into gold.

Actually no.
In my world the coach is responsible for motivating the team, having an effective system in place and is responsible for special teams and personnel deployment. Would you say he gets anything but an F- for any of those?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by polak

To the people defending Hartley and saying that the defensive, offensive and goaltending issues aren't his fault and that is on the players.... What is a coach responsible for exactly? If he's not responsible for the offense, defense or goaltending then what's Hartley's purpose?

Polak, do you remember the last coach we had before Hartley?

I am one of Hartley's critics and I have been since day one.

But every coach's purpose is always to do the opposite of their predecessor and successor unless you have a stacked roster.

Hartley has successfully fulfilled that by implementing a system with less dump and chase, more offense from the back end and at least claiming there exists a merit system.

His successor, when the time comes, will I'm sure do a great job getting Johnny to dump the puck, turning Brodie into J-Bo, and letting Phaneuf do whatever he wa-scratch that last part.

Just be careful what you wish for.

[saillias]

Wait what.

We already dump the puck a ton. Bennett dumped the puck with an empty net and under 1 min remaining just last night.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by saillias

Wait what.

We already dump the puck a ton. Bennett dumped the puck with an empty net and under 1 min remaining just last night.

We dump and change a ton. We don't dump and chase much.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by polak

Is he doing something that somehow makes him responsible for their success? Johnny was a college superstar and one of the best players to ever play in the NCAA and Bennett and Monahan were highly touted draft picks.

Brodie is the one player you could say he probably had a big role in his emergence but Gio also helps that immensely.



Actually no.
In my world the coach is responsible for motivating the team, having an effective system in place and is responsible for special teams and personnel deployment. Would you say he gets anything but an F- for any of those?

Fair enough, he doesn't get credit for those players then. They don't suck though, so i'll ask again. Which young players are the misses has he failed to develop properly?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by polak

Actually no.
In my world the coach is responsible for motivating the team, having an effective system in place and is responsible for special teams and personnel deployment. Would you say he gets anything but an F- for any of those?

Yes I would say the coaching staff is far from an F. They aren't perfect and they make some decisions I disagree with but overall I've seen much, much, much worse coaching in my time as a Flames fan. Don't have a huge problem with Hartley this year.

With Wideman and Hudler regressing he just doesn't have the pieces to field a consistent winning lineup.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by Frank MetaMusil

Fair enough, he doesn't get credit for those players then. They don't suck though, so i'll ask again. Which young players are the misses has he failed to develop properly?

One could make the argument for Baertschi and Horak. Yes I know I know. Baertschi is a headcase primadonna evil doer of Canuck character. And Horak is totally a not-NHLer and not good enough for the Oilers which is double proof he's totally not an NHLer.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by saillias

One could make the argument for Baertschi and Horak. Yes I know I know. Baertschi is a headcase primadonna evil doer of Canuck character. And Horak is totally a not-NHLer and not good enough for the Oilers which is double proof he's totally not an NHLer.

Yeah, 21 games of coaching Horak and he was gone to siberia.

[Coach]

- Brodie's development can probably be partially Gio, Hartley and Troy Ward. But did Hartley help Gio and in turn Brodie too?

- Bennett, Monahan, and Gaudreau all came in with high expectations, but we can see a great example of how bringing these guys in and not drilling good habits into them can really derail them (E=NG). It was never a given that any of those guys would become what they are/will be. I have no doubt that Hartley's teaching and treatment helped their development as NHL players.

- As for his "busts", Baertschi is all on himself IMO. Horak was a good player that probably would have been taking Granlund's opportunities. He got traded to dumpster fire and decided to go home instead. There was nothing wrong with his trajectory when he left here, most were sad to see him go. I didn't like how Wotherspoon was handled last year, but all indications seem to be that he won't be that 4-6 pairing guy we were hoping for.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by polak

Is he doing something that somehow makes him responsible for their success? Johnny was a college superstar and one of the best players to ever play in the NCAA and Bennett and Monahan were highly touted draft picks.

Brodie is the one player you could say he probably had a big role in his emergence but Gio also helps that immensely.



Actually no.
In my world the coach is responsible for motivating the team, having an effective system in place and is responsible for special teams and personnel deployment. Would you say he gets anything but an F- for any of those?

Dude seriously. Please change your avatar



EDIT: Otherwise I'll follow you around and hound you

[Enoch Root]

If Hartley gets a good chunk of credit for last season (including the Jack Adams), shouldn't he also get part of the blame for this season? Has to go both ways, no?

As for prospects, no one is going to have success with all, and he certainly has many more successes than failures. But I think he has to wear some criticism for Ortio.

[Burner]

I think its time to see some of our farmhands and what they can bring to the table

Forwards - Grant and Hamilton - maybe Poirier
Defence - Nakadal, Wotherspoon Shore and Kulak

needing to sit - Wideman, Raymond, Granlund ( not sent down - sit down and watch) Bollig

[browna]

Hartley was brought in by the former GM, as a last ditch effort from the GM, for his coach to try and replicate his Colorado veteran experience.

Before last year, hadn't won a playoff game, let alone series, since 2001. He rules with a mean stick. Doesn't work on vets this day and age. That sort of attitude and disciplinarian is not bad to get the young guys new to the league, into the routine of accountability and a professional, but IMO, and have said this for a few years, he's not going to be the coach to get those guys to the next level in a few years. For this team, if it stays the course from Burke and Treliving, they'll have to move on from Hartley and his staff, fairly or unfairly.

Have to trust Burke and Treliving in this case (and hope the owners stay out of the decisions); when they see that the team has hit a wall with player development and team development, changes will be made at the top before they start regressing as players, and as a team. That's not yet this year, even if there are bumps in the road. Is it next year if this team is still at this point, 365 days from now? Maybe. Treliving has to do his part this season and offseason to get more of the right type of players and attitudes and skill on the roster, and then it will be up to Hartley to make sure the young guys on this team aren't tuning out his blunt message.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If Hartley gets a good chunk of credit for last season (including the Jack Adams), shouldn't he also get part of the blame for this season? Has to go both ways, no?

Depends why you think we've struggled this season. There's a few reasons I don't think he really had complete control over.

1) Rusty start by Gio after his injury
2) Slow adaptation by Hamilton to our team
3) Injuries to Brodie and Bouma
4) Rough start by all of our defensemen and goalies
5) General bad puck luck this year
6) Overall poor play by Wideman and Hudler, two of our important veterans one in a contract year

I think the coaching staff should shoulder some blame sure. The power play in particular hasn't been as good as it needed to be. Maybe Hartley's road match ups need to be better. But there's a lot of other reasons why we've struggled that Hartley shouldn't be held responsible for. So to overall call the coaching a failure would be a gross exaggeration IMO.

[Frank MetaMusil]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

If Hartley gets a good chunk of credit for last season (including the Jack Adams), shouldn't he also get part of the blame for this season? Has to go both ways, no?

As for prospects, no one is going to have success with all, and he certainly has many more successes than failures. But I think he has to wear some criticism for Ortio.

For sure, the special teams are worse than Keenan's.

That said, it's coaching wizardry that the Flames made the second round with Russell-Wideman as their top pairing for the last 35+ games.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by browna

Hartley was brought in by the former GM, as a last ditch effort from the GM, for his coach to try and replicate his Colorado veteran experience.

Before last year, hadn't won a playoff game, let alone series, since 2001. He rules with a mean stick. Doesn't work on vets this day and age. That sort of attitude and disciplinarian is not bad to get the young guys new to the league, into the routine of accountability and a professional, but IMO, and have said this for a few years, he's not going to be the coach to get those guys to the next level in a few years. For this team, if it stays the course from Burke and Treliving, they'll have to move on from Hartley and his staff, fairly or unfairly.

Have to trust Burke and Treliving in this case (and hope the owners stay out of the decisions); when they see that the team has hit a wall with player development and team development, changes will be made at the top before they start regressing as players, and as a team. That's not yet this year, even if there are bumps in the road. Is it next year if this team is still at this point, 365 days from now? Maybe. Treliving has to do his part this season and offseason to get more of the right type of players and attitudes and skill on the roster, and then it will be up to Hartley to make sure the young guys on this team aren't tuning out his blunt message.

It's the veterans who have been putting in effort other than Raymond and Wideman. Stajan, Jones, Smid, Engelland, Giordano and Frolik have all shown good effort most nights.

Besides, I don't think you can assume Hartley hasn't reconsidered his methods since his Colorado days. I assume a coach at the NHL has multiple tricks up their sleeve. Most NHL coaches nowadays are more like managers anyways. Roster decisions, scheduling activities, meetings, and preparation. Hence we see more assistant coaches drawing up the plays.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Depends why you think we've struggled this season. There's a few reasons I don't think he really had complete control over.

1) Rusty start by Gio after his injury
2) Slow adaptation by Hamilton to our team
3) Injuries to Brodie and Bouma
4) Rough start by all of our defensemen and goalies
5) General bad puck luck this year
6) Overall poor play by Wideman and Hudler, two of our important veterans one in a contract year

I think the coaching staff should shoulder some blame sure. The power play in particular hasn't been as good as it needed to be. Maybe Hartley's road match ups need to be better. But there's a lot of other reasons why we've struggled that Hartley shouldn't be held responsible for. So to overall call the coaching a failure would be a gross exaggeration IMO.

Yes, but again - it has to go both ways or neither.

If the bad play is on the players (and I agree that it is), then shouldn't last year's good play also be on the players?

Is it due to Hartley that Wideman and Hudler had career years? Was the hot goaltending early in the season due to Hartley?

My point is that the "Jacks Adams' argument is kind of silly: he deserves a similar amount of blame for this year, as he does credit for last year (which is to say, less than the players do in both cases IMO).