CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[RM14]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Flames focused on funding and no reliable vision/rendering.

EDIT:

on second look, there may be some different reasoning for this. Ottawa has a bid process for it, so renderings are key right off the bat. Calgary Flames are not bidding against anyone, so renders are less important in the scheme of their proposal.

I think my comment still stands, though.

I think this situation is completely different and a bit of a mess. There are two groups:

DCDLS - Backed by two Quebec billionaires who are also trying to acquire the Sens from Eugene Melnyk. Melnyk has stated publicly he will not sell the team or play in the arena built in this proposal.

RLG - Supported by Melnyk. Estimated at a $3.5B three decade development.


And there is zero information of how these proposals are to be funded. Or is it implied 100% private?

[polak]

Is Ken King the President of the Flames still or has he been moved into a project director type role for the arena? Cause if it's the latter then I have no idea how he has a job still.

[Finger Cookin]

So, better than even odds that the Blues get two arenas built before the Flames move from the Saddledome?

[taco.vidal]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

So, better than even odds that the Blues get two arenas built before the Flames move from the Saddledome?

Are those odds for the Flames moving to anither building in Calgary or another city?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by RM14

I think this situation is completely different and a bit of a mess. There are two groups:

DCDLS - Backed by two Quebec billionaires who are also trying to acquire the Sens from Eugene Melnyk. Melnyk has stated publicly he will not sell the team or play in the arena built in this proposal.

RLG - Supported by Melnyk. Estimated at a $3.5B three decade development.


And there is zero information of how these proposals are to be funded. Or is it implied 100% private?

Yeah, the more I read it, the more this situation screams mess. Both sides want to put their best foot forward and present the winning bid. Winning bid will have leverage with the sale.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by taco.vidal

Are those odds for the Flames moving to anither building in Calgary or another city?

Another building in Calgary.

EDIT: Whoops, misread the Blues story. Apparently it's a renovation to Scottrade Center after 21 years. That's about how long it's been since the Dome renovation.

[CgyFlamesftw]

At this rate every major city in North America will be on their second new arena before calgarynext breaks ground. How a top iconic city like calgary has #### infrastructure when it comes to arenas also boggles my mind.

[polak]

Originally Posted by CgyFlamesftw

At this rate every major city in North America will be on their second new arena before calgarynext breaks ground. How a top iconic city like calgary has #### infrastructure when it comes to arenas also boggles my mind.

We're not a top iconic city in the sense that would lead you to expect world class infrastructure.

We're a city of 1.4 million people. That's tiny. Our crazy skyline for a city of our size really masks how small we actually are. We would be just outside of the Top 40 for largest cities in the US. Somewhere around Hartford and Grand Rapids.

We really take for granted how lucky we are to have what "big city feel" we get. Here are a couple examples of what normal cities with 1.4 million people look like:

Hartford:


Louisville:


Grand Rapids:


Would you go to any of these cities and expect them to have a billion dollar Stadium/Arena combo or other "world class" infrastructure? We have it pretty good up here thanks to that currently worthless black stuff in the ground.

All that said, the Saddledome and McMahon would be an embarrassment in all of those cities too. We desperately need a solid arena and stadium.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by polak

We're a city of 1.4 million people. That's tiny. Our crazy skyline for a city of our size really masks how small we actually are. We would be just outside of the Top 40 for largest cities in the US. Somewhere around Hartford and Grand Rapids.

Yeah, that's only partially true. Based on urban population figures Calgary comes in top 10, just a head of San Jose and just about the size of Dallas. Where American cities get the edge is metro population based on urban sprawl. Unfortunately that also works against the big cities. For example, even though I'm a hockey junkie I get to maybe one or two games a year,, because I live 1 1/2 hours from the arena. In Calgary I could easily live in the burbs and attend games. Can't do that in the metro areas.

[upperloge77]

CalgaryNext is just trying to serve too many masters. Yes the fieldhouse gets you some $200m in funding, but as far as how much public use you'd get in a shared space? Drop a concert that's bigger than an arena show in there and there's no kids soccer for a week. Stamps would need a practise facility elsewhere, and any other programming on gameday would be a wash.

I'd prefer to see the Flames fund something like the Saitama Super Arena with a community arena attached for the Flames to use as a practise sheet when concerts or football are taking over the main event space. Football would still need a practise space as well. Maybe just across the river in Broadview Park? Build a pedestrian footbridge from Next to the field there for team/community access?

As for King, he'd be very wise to listen to what Kroenke said as one of the key reasons his pitch got picked for the NFL's LA relocation. "lots and lots of pictures"

[browna]

Yeah, no financing details on the Ottawa project.
And, a lot more space to work with.
And, no competition in Calgary.

Also, both bids are certainly playing up certain social aspects to try and attract future government funds...library, bandstand, YMCA, French Language School and theatre on one proposal.

The other one has a Library, already-named First Nations Plaza, a building for Canadian Military for medical attention and counselling etc.

Bids positioning with such noble (or shameless) attempts to sway the public and levels of government. One bid will say "How dare you vote down the proposal for the French languge school? - English Canada getting their way again".

The other side will be "How dare you vote down the proposal with a facility that will care for our Military"?

Though there isn't the space, if KK and the owners talked about totally renovating the Pumphouse Theatre as part of the project, into a world class concert hall and Arts Centre, or if the area was to be the location of the National Music Centre or other destination for the Arts, as well as adding some sort of educational or social service centre as Ottawa, it may have played well with the Mayor, moreso than even a Field House.

As mentioned, the field house IMO is/was more to get the City on board for the project, as it has been identified by the city before, and the Flames thought it was more an actual need for the the City, then it is for the Flames as a new football venue. It's backfired, as it didn't sway the mayor, and the size of it takes a big footprint of land, which means that some of the above mentioned other options that may have persuaded the Mayor could not be included.

[underGRADFlame]

I will be so happy when the report comes out on the remediation of the West village site so there can be some actual discussion about CalgaryNext instead of all this posturing in the media (and bitching and complaining on here).

I look at what was presented and a "vision" not a plan or even a proposal. Once the report comes out the Flames and the municipal/provincial/federal can start looking the real costs.

I believe this project will get done as a back bone of an olympic bid with 3 levels of government pitching in along with the Flames coming up with some additional funds (additional $50Mil).

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Calgary Flames are not bidding against anyone

They are effectively bidding against CMLC.

Originally Posted by polak

We're a city of 1.4 million people. That's tiny. Our crazy skyline for a city of our size really masks how small we actually are.

We're not the only city that's small and tall... Panama City and Benidorm, for example. The difference is we're not coastal. I wonder if all the SFH around downtown actually acts to squeeze our downtown upwards?

[troutman]

I heard there are 400 cities in China bigger than Calgary.

[nik-]

well they have more than 1300 times the population, so it makes sense.

[RM14]

Originally Posted by SebC

They are effectively bidding against CMLC.

CMLC was at the presentation in the summer and are working alongside the flames with calgaryNext.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Ottawa has been in the league for 23 years and they're probably going to build their second new arena before the Flames replace the Saddledome, where they've been for 3 decades. Never would've guessed that five years ago, but here we are.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by troutman

I heard there are 400 cities in China bigger than Calgary.

Great! Now the naysayers will have 400 targets for the Flames future relocation.

[Hugh Jahrmes]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Huh. It looks like the Senators paid some professionals to put that presentation together and gave them weeks - even months - to do it. They really pulled out all the stops. I thought these things were just put together with powerpoint over a long weekend by the team president.

I was under the impression King had an old personal laptop running Win98SE and used a cracked copy of the original 3D Studio Max he'd downloaded from some ancient 'warez' site with lime green and yellow text on a black background with excessive use Id the 'blink' tag to cook up those renderings. Closer I look though you may be right.. It kind of looks like the entire thing was created using the stock clipart library and a few thousand shapes inserted into PP (too bad we didn't get the full experience, with each object making a whoosh sound as they "fly in").


(To be fair I only make t to 3-5 games a year, don't live in the city, and am part of the "full speed ahead and damn the consequences" crowd that just wants a new barn, as im not affected the way many others are)


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[Mr.Coffee]

Does anyone else find this entire situation pretty hilarious? Because I do, and when you think about it, it's all just so absurd.