Which Flames actually have trade value?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Fan in Exile

A hockey team isn't a stock portfolio. They are human beings. Building a team is more than the sum of its parts. Loyalty matters. Continuity matters. Having a mix of vets and youth matters. If we had a manager who calculated as coldly as you, players would not respond well. You would kill the spirit of the team. Your approach may be rational but not realistic.

It is pretty rare to trade a player like Hudler at the end of a season like he had last year. The team wouldn't like it and free agents wouldn't like it. Frolik probably doesn't sign here if we trade Hudler unless it was an unbelievable return.

I don't disagree with what you are saying, but the business has changed. There is less loyalty on the player side meaning owners can be less loyal as well. To be successful you need to make tough decisions and make moves at the right time. If the team doesn't do that they only hurt themselves.

I think you show loyalty to your core players, but other pieces should be interchangeable and moveable at any time. These guys are professionals and know this is part of the game. That is why they are getting millions of dollars a year and the vast majority of them accept this as part of the game.

If the Flames want to accelerate the rebuild they need to make wise moves at the right times. You may think they need to show loyalty to certain players, and I don't disagree with that. Unfortunately the vets on the team are those that are not on the list where loyalty comes into play.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by polak

Does he?

I can't recall any plays where he has shown to have any of those things on a consistent basis. You list all of these great attributes but players that consistently demonstrate those things have success. 8 points and 2 goals past the halfway point of the season is not a successful offensive forward. In fact, if he doesn't pick it up I'd be surprised if he was in the NHL after next season.

Watch closer

[dino7c]

eight points in 37 games...if he is untouchable we have problems

he shows flashes but at some point you need a guy to convert

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by dino7c

eight points in 37 games...if he is untouchable we have problems

He's unlikely to be moved because his value isn't equal to his upside. He has more potential than immediate value. He's also unlikely to be moved because he's a rare commodity (power forward) that we lack on the team without him.

This doesn't make him untouchable but rather a piece we'd rather hang onto unless someone overpays for him. Since no one is likely to overpay for him I don't think you'll see him moved. Clearly untouchable isn't the correct term. He's a promising young player and we're more likely to keep those types of players than deal them away, unless we're dealing from a position of strength and too much depth.

We're much more likely to trade one of our defense prospects than our best power forward prospect. If we draft Matt Tkachuk and sign Milan Lucic then we can start to talk about trading away power forwards lol

[Macho0978]

IMO the 3 biggest needs for the Flames moving forward:

Top 6 forward, depth on d and goalies

Issues moving forward to obtain this:

Not one player in the AHL has shown they will be ready for next season. If some prove me wrong none have shown they are good enough to be top 6 forwards or top 4 dmen right away either.

Gaudreau and Monahan's contracts won't leave us much space to pick someone up or make another Hamilton deal. Raymond, Smid, Engeland and Stajan all are signed for another year. All are 3rd pairing/ 4th line at best

We have no goalies signed for next year. Good chance it is Ramo again next year

You could make a case with Bennett on the team now our Farm system is average at best again. We could use picks big time. We still have good prospects but none may make an impact for a few years throw in the cap space issues this year is exactly what we needed.

A lot of concerns go away though if we sell at the deadline and get Gaudreau and Monahan signed long term for a good contract.

In the end guys I wouldn't trade:

Gaudreau
Monahan
Bennett
Frolik
Ferland
Colborne
Backlund
Hamilton
Gio
Brodie
Bouma

I would entertain Ramo on a 1 year deal again as well

I don't trade anyone of the above listed this year unless we get a steal that we wouldn't expect. No need to completely uproot the team when we could get a top 5 pick and have a few extra 2nds, 3rds and 4ths. This team isn't good enough but I feel over the last few years Button and the scouts have done a good job drafting and I say we should let them do their job this year with 7-8 picks in the first 4 rounds. If things look bad next year again then we entertain guys like Frolik, Backlund, Gio, Bouma trades IMO

[Fire of the Phoenix]

The worst thing about the Flames losing is that this place seems to devolve into never ending arguments over how crappy all of our players are. The only exception is Gaudreau.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

The worst thing about the Flames losing is that this place seems to devolve into never ending arguments over how crappy all of our players are. The only exception is Gaudreau.

Bennett, Gaudreau and Brodie. Gios resurgence puts him into that group again although he will always be under the spotlight with that contract.

To be honest, the rest of our team has sucked this season. When you're one of the worst teams in the league you're going to have a lot of people saying most of our players suck...

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by polak

Bennett, Gaudreau and Brodie. Gios resurgence puts him into that group again although he will always be under the spotlight with that contract.

To be honest, the rest of our team has sucked this season. When you're one of the worst teams in the league you're going to have a lot of people saying most of our players suck...

Even Bennett had detractors before his recent hot streak. Agreed on Brodie. Obviously there is justification, I slam players too. Everyone has their whipping boys, I guess. It's just hard to read, I prefer this place when things are going better for the team, beyond me wanting the Flames to win because I'm a fan of the team. It's just hard to read sometimes, even if it's justified.

[CSharp]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

Don't see a point in including Gio as trade bait. I get the contract takes him to 39 which is scary but I don't see any way the Flames move him before his new deal kicks in

Actually, Gio would be really good for the Flames in a block-buster trade. What the Flames need is size with some speed, a d-man who can slap the puck really hard, and is a reasonably sound defensively in return. Gio's skillset, besides his leadership, is redundant on the team having Brodie and Hamilton. You can tell that a lot of the Flames' defensive mishaps are due to their lack of size and the lack of efforts to take the body in their own zone.

It would've been interesting if the Flames and Sabres do a trade last season to get Tyler Myers for Gio in a package. That would've been cool.

[1qqaaz]

Back to the OP, I think its pretty unfair to say Stajan has value at 50%, while Wideman, a guy who was top 5 in D scoring last year, has negative value.

Wideman with 50% salary retained has a lot more value than Stajan does.

I think that Ferland's offensive potential is overrated, but overall, he deserves some praise as a young player.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

We get it. You don't think much of Ferland. You've probably made 20+ posts to that effect. At this point you should change your avatar to a picture of Ferland with an X over his face.

And I will keep making posts to that effect until either the silly posts of him being untouchable cease or he actually takes a left turn and becomes a solid NHL player. Right now he's a tweener like Granlund.

[Robbob]

This trade deadline should be interesting and would benefit the team in the long run if they are sellers on that day. I think Treliving probably wanted to do more last year but owed it to the players not to have the fire sale because of what they were doing. I could see him looking at trading anyone but the list below if thinks it makes the team better long term:

Gaudreau
Monahan
Bennett
Frolik
Hamilton
Gio
Brodie

I also think that pretty much every player has some value. Those with the extra contract year could still be moved easily if salary was retained (except Raymond, I think he is one of the only players that has a negative value).

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Players that I think will have value at the deadline:

Hudler - A team may pick him up for secondary scoring. It will help if he plays better the rest of the way
Russell - Probably will hold quite a bit of value to playoff teams. Depth defensemen go for a lot at the deadline
Engelland - Will have some value even with the additional year. Depth defensemen have value at the deadline.
Smid - Hasn't seen as much action so I'm not sure his value will be as high as Engelland's but personally he's the guy I'd most like to keep of our veteran d-men
Wideman - Will have some value but his contract next year is a problem. We may have to take a bad contract back to move him. Makes some sense for us to get an overpaid depth scorer back to shift our financial situation on the backend around.
Stajan - Depth centres are always worth something. Dunno if the Flames would be interested in moving him.
Jones - Depth scorer/grinder will have some value, not a ton.
Granlund - is a guy that looks kind of expendable but I don't know that he has a ton of value

I'd be looking to build around Gio, Brodie, Hamilton, Gaudreau, Monahan, Bennett, Bouma, Backlund, Frolik and Ferland. Everybody else we can shop IMO.

[Calgary4LIfe]

I am of the opinion that during a rebuild, a team will have at least one completely lousy and pathetic season. I can't off the top of my head think of a rebuilding team that didn't.

Calgary had a half-season (not even - a half-half season since it was the lockout), and that didn't count as all that bad - led up to the Monahan draft picking 6th overall.

Following season was a 'better than expected' season - Flames finished the year with the 4th overall selection, but they were closer to the 8th spot than the last spot IIRC (or anyways, there was a nice gap between us and the sucky sucky forever Oilers). I wouldn't call that one a 'terrible season' either, even with finishing that low.

Last year was an amazing season. Not everything went right - Calgary had a whole bunch of injuries. Still, their play was impressive and they made it all the way to the 2nd round of the playoffs.

This year? Well, maybe we are due for a terrible season. I can live with that. Every team goes through it during a rebuild. I can watch this product on the ice and cheer for them, because at least you get to see a young core developing and growing together. That's interesting. That is what I will remember when Calgary lifts the cup sometime in the future, and I will be that much more appreciative of the win.

Now, in terms of value, it becomes very difficult to peg value on players these days. You have to see if it is a buyer's market or a seller's market. Timing is everything. What would normally cost you a 1st one year, costs you a 2nd the following year, and vice versa.

With that, I believe that if Calgary was to sell some of its' vets, there would be some good offers. Players like Hudler and Russell should return at least a 2nd - perhaps a first if they are playing better or if the market drives up the prices. I doubt very much that Colborne is going anywhere - one of our only bigger and younger guys? Might frustrate some fans, but this team needs size and values it - Colborne (and especially Ferland) are going nowhere. Flames would need an overpayment to trade them away, and I doubt at this point any team would overpay for them. Colborne would get moved only if future contract demands are too high, or if the Flames have enough size in the lineup down the line.

Jones has size and puts up a decent amount of points, but he is inconsistent and is too old to be considered in the long-term plans, so I expect him to be traded. I would think a 3rd might be the return though. Not at all that exciting, but hey - Flames packaged up two thirds to move into the 2nd last year and draft Kylington, so every pick counts.

I think there will be more roster turnover than just Hudler, Russell and Jones, but tough to say who exactly. Definitely those three. I would be happy to come out of it with 2nds and a third combined through separate deals, but hopefully I can be pleasantly surprised.

Hiller (or MAYBE Ramo) might get traded if another team's goalie goes down. Just have to look at Montreal to see how GMs might start to get jittery if that happens. Doubtful it happens.

But yes, there are many players outside of those with value. Teams are always looking for good depth players at good contracts - Flames do have plenty of those. Even their 'bad' contracts aren't so bad really, as most are expiring after next season. Flames may find that Smid, Engelland and even Raymond get the Flames half decent returns next year. For it to happen this season, Flames would have to retain 50% on them.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Watch closer

lol

Only FDW understands hockey guys. If you disagree with him you're obviously just not watching enough.

[Poe969]

After a loss, none of our guys have good trade value. After a win like the game against the Panthers everyone is awesome!

I have to agree that Wideman at 50% has a lot of value, even at this deadline. I think we'll be surprised at the returns some of our guys get.

[dino7c]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

He's unlikely to be moved because his value isn't equal to his upside. He has more potential than immediate value. He's also unlikely to be moved because he's a rare commodity (power forward) that we lack on the team without him.

This doesn't make him untouchable but rather a piece we'd rather hang onto unless someone overpays for him. Since no one is likely to overpay for him I don't think you'll see him moved. Clearly untouchable isn't the correct term. He's a promising young player and we're more likely to keep those types of players than deal them away, unless we're dealing from a position of strength and too much depth.

We're much more likely to trade one of our defense prospects than our best power forward prospect. If we draft Matt Tkachuk and sign Milan Lucic then we can start to talk about trading away power forwards lol

never argued that...just said he is far from untouchable, not even a proven NHLer

[Harry Lime]

From time to time people say how we don't have anyone that can move up from Stockton.

Derek Grant (ready for a bottom 6 centre role. big, strong, great at faceoffs, offense coming along)
Drew Shore (can step into a bottom 6 right wing role, seems to wear down the opposition)
Kenny Agostino (right wing, needs to face NHL opposition to see if he can maintain)
Wotherspoon (strong defensive play, left side, weak offense. He's Trent Yawney!)
Nakladal (overall performer, right side, player most ready)

So from my point of view, we could trade a bottom 6 centre and two right wings, and one full defensive pair, for picks and prospects, and not really lose a beat.

Dare I say that I wouldn't miss Granlund (or Backlund), Jones, Jooris, Russell and Wideman, not because I don't like them as players, but because these are positions that we can fill, and these are players that I can see other teams wanting. (as opposed to who we would like to trade)

[gilligans_off]

loosing Grandlund would be a mistake I think. He seems to be a favourite amongst players.

[hummdeedoo]

I like Ferland and I think his play has steadily improved over the season. With that said if a good offer came in I would consider the trade.

I would also take Frolik out the trade value group. The Flames just signed him to a decent contract and I think he fits in nicely going forward.