4 Canadian Soldiers killed in Afghanistan

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Christian occupation force?

Again, where is that coming from?

I'm pointing out that its not beyond the realm of rationality to think that many 'Arabs' in the Middle East could construe NATO (white, predominantly Christian) as being a 'Christian' alliance... which it sort of is, though its not based on its Christianity.

I'm surprised you're having such difficulty believing Afghans could mistake NATO's intent and motivation. They don't believe what you believe, they don't know what you know. They're different from us. Figure it out.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

No he asked oilers_fan, and not me. His other points weren't made with a specific reference.

You're trying to get me into an argument about the Geneva Convention. Its too bad I'm not biting, isn't it?

All of the points were in response to oilers_fan. You picked one to respond to, but wouldn't respond to the others because 'they weren't adressed to you'. None of them were, so thats a Lame point.

I'm not trying to get you to do anything other than back up your statement of support for oilers_fan wishing Canadian troops weren't held back by 'rules'. You've failed to do so. I stand by my comment; you're a wide open mouth, and thats it.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Well... since you referred to Afghanistan as an Arab nation, which is totally incorrect, I'm guessing there's an Afghan or two who would mistake us for being a Christian nation in the same way (or are all Afghanis better educated about the world than you?). The only example I thought I required was your ignorance.

In other words you don't have any evidence. There are many Arab countries in the ME, so it would seem natural that Afghanistan is included.

I didn't know that the classification is made based on the official langauage of a certain country.

You said...

I'm not surprised some Afghan's would believe we're part of a 'Christian' oriented occupation force.

Again...where is that coming from? And don't give me the BS that you were responding to me either.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I'm pointing out that its not beyond the realm of rationality to think that many 'Arabs' in the Middle East could construe NATO (white, predominantly Christian) as being a 'Christian' alliance... which it sort of is, though its not based on its Christianity.

I'm surprised you're having such difficulty believing Afghans could mistake NATO's intent and motivation. They don't believe what you believe, they don't know what you know. They're different from us. Figure it out.

No you're the one coming up with the idea, now back it up.

Saying it is not 'beyond the realm of rationality' isn't exactly evidence to prove your point.

Being different doesn to necessarily make them believe that the NATO led force is a Christian occupation army. Again, there have been numerous polls carried out in Afghanistan, certainly you could come up with one shred of evidence to support your claim.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

All of the points were in response to oilers_fan. You picked one to respond to, but wouldn't respond to the others because 'they weren't adressed to you'. None of them were, so thats a Lame point.

Wow.

Here, since you're too lazy to go back and actually read the intial post, I'll help you.

(1) As for why the Liberals are "making hay" on this issue is because our original mandate was the secure the urban areas and keep the Taliban, run out of the cities by the US, from coming back to the urban areas. Under the Conservatives, the mandate has changed from defensive to offensive. We're heading out into the country and taking out targets.

Now who brought up that? Was it oilers_fan? Did he say 'anything' about the Liberals?

(2) oilers_fan: Which rules would you want our troops to break?

Ah, the infamous question directed at oilers_fan. I guess you didn't notice the bolded part, eh?

(3) I really think that the Green party makes a good point. There are many Muslim members of the United Nations. Having Canadian troops there makes it look like an occupation by overwhelmingly Christian countries. Canada should send supplies and money and help with the training, but these suicide bombers *might* think twice before blowing up other Muslims. Our troops are needed in other areas of the world where it wouldn't be seen as a Christian occupation.

And here is the other point that was brought up. Again, where was it directed at oilers_fan?

No quote, no nothing.

BTW, this is the post where I get the "christian" occupation quote from. Since you choose to defend it, provide evidence that...

Our troops are needed in other areas of the world where it wouldn't be seen as a Christian occupation force.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

In other words you don't have any evidence. There are many Arab countries in the ME, so it would seem natural that Afghanistan is included.

I didn't know that the classification is made based on the official langauage of a certain country.

Their not ethnically Arab. They are Pashtun and other ethnicities. People from Saudi Arabia and people from Afghanistan are not different just due to language.

Again...where is that coming from? And don't give me the BS that you were responding to me either.

I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if Afghan's thought we were part of a Christian occupation force. I don't recall saying I was dead sure they all thought that way.

That said, given your enormous blunder of not even knowing what ethnicity lives in Afghanistan, I maintain that it seems likely Afghanis could make the same mistake you made, out of ignorance.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Their not ethnically Arab. They are Pashtun and other ethnicities. People from Saudi Arabia and people from Afghanistan are not different just due to language.

The general idea when searching through google, is that a Arab country is classified that way because of their language.

I'm saying I wouldn't be surprised if Afghan's thought we were part of a Christian occupation force. I don't recall saying I was dead sure they all thought that way.

Oh so now you're not 'dead sure'?

I wouldn't be suprised at a lot of things. For example, I wouldn't be suprised if Saddam didn't move WMD prior to the Iraq War. But no, that doesn't cut it around here, does it?

Geeez.

That said, given your enormous blunder of not even knowing what ethnicity lives in Afghanistan, I maintain that it seems likely Afghanis could make the same mistake you made, out of ignorance.

Enormous blunder?

I'm pretty sure the Afghani's would have a thing or two to say about the NATO led force if they viewed it as a Christian occupation army.

Remember the big deal about the Islamic covert to Christianity a while ago? Wasn't his life in danger because of that?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

No you're the one coming up with the idea, now back it up.

Saying it is not 'beyond the realm of rationality' isn't exactly evidence to prove your point.

Being different doesn to necessarily make them believe that the NATO led force is a Christian occupation army. Again, there have been numerous polls carried out in Afghanistan, certainly you could come up with one shred of evidence to support your claim.

I never said all Afghans believe we are a Christian occupation force. I said I wouldn't be surprised to find that some believe that. Given your total ignorance of the area (which has been proven), I don't feel the need to find someone like you in Afghanistan who makes the same blunder. I'm sure I could find several quotes of Afghanis who believe religion is a factor in the occupation... but given your total lack of knowledge in the area, I don't see the point.

You do admit that some Afghans could see our troops as religiously different than them... right? The majority of the occupation forces are A) white and B) from predominantly Christian nations.

Am I putting forward a manifesto suggesting Afghanis all believe this is a religious conflict from our point of view? No. I never said anything like that.

The hilarious part is I've asked you several times about backing up your support for oilers_fan original statement that Canadian troops are being held back by the 'rules'. You continue to dance, typical obfuscating Azure. You won't answer the question posed to you, but demand that I respond to yours.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Ah, the infamous question directed at oilers_fan. I guess you didn't notice the bolded part, eh?

You posted support for oilers_fan statement about following the 'rules'. When asked to provide more information about why you support this, you avoid the question. As expected.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

I never said all Afghans believe we are a Christian occupation force. I said I wouldn't be surprised to find that some believe that.

Huh?

Just some Afghanis? But 'many' Arabs eh?

Given your total ignorance of the area (which has been proven), I don't feel the need to find someone like you in Afghanistan who makes the same blunder. I'm sure I could find several quotes of Afghanis who believe religion is a factor in the occupation... but given your total lack of knowledge in the area, I don't see the point.

So based on one mistake, you're not going to provide evidence?

You do admit that some Afghans could see our troops as religiously different than them... right? The majority of the occupation forces are A) white and B) from predominantly Christian nations.

I think they view them as the reconstruction force there to help them, largely made up of troops from the Western World. I also think the extremists are the ones pushing through propaganda that the NATO force is a 'religious' force, and is there to fight Islam. Why the hell else would it be classified as a Christian occupation army?

I guess you've fallen for that propaganda.

Am I putting forward a manifesto suggesting Afghanis all believe this is a religious conflict from our point of view? No. I never said anything like that.

You said that 'many' Arabs believe it.

The hilarious part is I've asked you several times about backing up your support for oilers_fan original statement that Canadian troops are being held back by the 'rules'. You continue to dance, typical obfuscating Azure. You won't answer the question posed to you, but demand that I respond to yours.

They are being held back by rules. We're fighting a non-conventional army through conventional means.

I'm not dancing, or ignoring anything. You're the one who came up with the BS statement that 'all' the points were directed at oilers_fan, which you still haven't proven.

Nice way of ignoring the post though. Best way to avoid something is to accuse the other person.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

The general idea when searching through google, is that a Arab country is classified that way because of their language.

Look at the CIA World Factbook. They're not Arab ethnically. Period. Language is not the determining factor for the CIA, ethnicity is. Saudis and Afghans are not the same people who differ by language, they are different ethnicities.

Oh so now you're not 'dead sure'?

All I've ever said is that I wouldn't be surprised to find Afghanis who feel that we are a Christian occupation force. I'm not dead sure that all of them feel that way, as I pointed out in my first post. Some of them? Probably, for sure. I think you'd have to be a total moron to say without reservation that no Afghani thinks that way... which you seem to be saying.

Enormous blunder?

I'm pretty sure the Afghani's would have a thing or two to say about the NATO led force if they viewed it as a Christian occupation army.

There are millions of Afghanis. They've said plenty of things about NATO forces, some good, some bad. Do you think ALL Afghanis welcome the occupation force?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

You posted support for oilers_fan statement about following the 'rules'. When asked to provide more information about why you support this, you avoid the question. As expected.

And I said oilers_fan pretty much summed up by point in his next post.

Or did you miss that too?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Look at the CIA World Factbook. They're not Arab ethnically. Period. Language is not the determining factor for the CIA, ethnicity is. Saudis and Afghans are not the same people who differ by language, they are different ethnicities.

Its too bad the CIA World Factbook didn't show up with I searched Google, is it?

All I've ever said is that I wouldn't be surprised to find Afghanis who feel that we are a Christian occupation force. I'm not dead sure that all of them feel that way, as I pointed out in my first post. Some of them? Probably, for sure. I think you'd have to be a total moron to say without reservation that no Afghani thinks that way... which you seem to be saying.

So you went from some, to many, to all.

I think the Afghanis don't view as a Christian occupation army, only the extremists do. Meaning the Taliban.

There are millions of Afghanis. They've said plenty of things about NATO forces, some good, some bad. Do you think ALL Afghanis welcome the occupation force?

Given the history of Afghanistan, I'm pretty sure they would unite to drive out the NATO force 'if' they wouldn't be welcoming them.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Huh?

Just some Afghanis? But 'many' Arabs eh?

This doesn't make sense to me. Afghanis live in Afghanistan. Remember, you're the one who's confused about that.

So based on one mistake, you're not going to provide evidence?

Yep. Why bother spending time educating someone whose ignorant about the region? I'd have to spend hours teaching you fundamentals, and I don't have the time to teach you.

I think they view them as the reconstruction force there to help them, largely made up of troops from the Western World. I also think the extremists are the ones pushing through propaganda that the NATO force is a 'religious' force, and is there to fight Islam. Why the hell else would it be classified as a Christian occupation army?

I think for you to believe you know 'what Afghanis think' is remarkably arrogant and presumptuous of you. They're not like you. They don't see the world like you do. One day you'll figure out that other points of view exist despite your own, and they're no less valid.

I guess you've fallen for that propaganda.

You said that 'many' Arabs believe it.

Many probably do. Are you saying that none do? Hmm? You seem good at putting my views to the extreme, how about yours? No 'Arabs' believe NATO is a Christian-oriented occupation force? None? Period? I'm saying 'some', where you seem to be saying 'all.

They are being held back by rules. We're fighting a non-conventional army through conventional means.

Ok, what rules are holding us back? What changes would you make?

I'm not dancing, or ignoring anything. You're the one who came up with the BS statement that 'all' the points were directed at oilers_fan, which you still haven't proven.

Lol, hilarious! Dance Azure, dance! Don't you have a Social Studies 20 class to be off to?

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Its too bad the CIA World Factbook didn't show up with I searched Google, is it?

Um... http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...+factbook&meta=

Maybe try actually doing the search. Seems pretty obvious. There are details about the ethnic makeup of Afghanistan in there... but you have to actually look to get the info.

So you went from some, to many, to all.

I think the Afghanis don't view as a Christian occupation army, only the extremists do. Meaning the Taliban.

Right. Now you've taken my point and made it your own. I said some Afghanis probably feel this way... and you've gone ahead and verified that. I never said all of them felt that way, you tried to put that in my mouth.

Given the history of Afghanistan, I'm pretty sure they would unite to drive out the NATO force 'if' they wouldn't be welcoming them.

Afghanistan is not a united place with a single people. It is diverse. Some people will welcome foreign intervention, some won't. If NATO is so welcome in Afghanistan, why are NATO soldiers being killed? Obviously some Afghanis don't appreciate the occupation.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

And I said oilers_fan pretty much summed up by point in his next post.

Or did you miss that too?

Right... that you guys don't know what you would change in the rules of engagement. Sounds like you're just generally frustrated.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

This doesn't make sense to me. Afghanis live in Afghanistan. Remember, you're the one who's confused about that.

Sure.

Still, the idea applies to 'all' countries in the ME, epecially countries where the majority of the people are Muslim.

Yep. Why bother spending time educating someone whose ignorant about the region? I'd have to spend hours teaching you fundamentals, and I don't have the time to teach you.

In other words, the evidence doesn't exist.

Moving along...

I think for you to believe you know 'what Afghanis think' is remarkably arrogant and presumptuous of you. They're not like you. They don't see the world like you do. One day you'll figure out that other points of view exist despite your own, and they're no less valid.

But its okay for 'you' to believe you know what the Afghanis know? Two way street if you put it that way.

Many probably do. Are you saying that none do? Hmm? You seem good at putting my views to the extreme, how about yours? No 'Arabs' believe NATO is a Christian-oriented occupation force? None? Period? I'm saying 'some', where you seem to be saying 'all.

You said many view the NATO led force as a Christian occupation army. Provide evidence of that, NOT based on your assumptions either.

Until then, your point is moot.

Ok, what rules are holding us back? What changes would you make?

I never said they should change the rules. I'm saying we are held back, and frankly, I don't know what 'else' we could do in order to be more sucessful.

Just wondering out loud here...does the Geneva Convention 'ever' protect Canadian, American, British...or any of the other troops serving in the ME?

Lol, hilarious! Dance Azure, dance! Don't you have a Social Studies 20 class to be off to?

Well since you can't admit your mistake, I guess we'll just move on.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Right... that you guys don't know what you would change in the rules of engagement. Sounds like you're just generally frustrated.

I know I am frustrated by what is happening. He probably is too.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Um... http://www.google.ca/search?hl=en&q=...+factbook&meta=

Maybe try actually doing the search. Seems pretty obvious. There are details about the ethnic makeup of Afghanistan in there... but you have to actually look to get the info.

Knowing that the keywords, Arab, Afghanistan, Muslim, etc, etc...never brought up the CIA World Factbook...

Right. Now you've taken my point and made it your own. I said some Afghanis probably feel this way... and you've gone ahead and verified that. I never said all of them felt that way, you tried to put that in my mouth.

You never said a word about the extremists.

Afghanistan is not a united place with a single people. It is diverse. Some people will welcome foreign intervention, some won't. If NATO is so welcome in Afghanistan, why are NATO soldiers being killed? Obviously some Afghanis don't appreciate the occupation.

NATO soldiers are being killed by the Taliban. An extremist group that is trying to influence their views on the rest of the Afghani people.

Not trying to sound vague here either, but to an extent, the Afghani people elected a government that has 'asked' NATO to stay and help rebuild their country.

[Looger]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Afghanistan is not a united place with a single people. It is diverse. Some people will welcome foreign intervention, some won't. If NATO is so welcome in Afghanistan, why are NATO soldiers being killed? Obviously some Afghanis don't appreciate the occupation.

ABSOLUTELY.

afghanistan was set up a long time ago by the british, persian, and russian empires as a buffer zone, because none of them could subjugate it.

it wasn't set up by the 'afghanies', it was set up because the british empire was tired of getting regularly massacred.

the central asian tribes in that region have never ever been conquered. control of the countryside is a logistical nightmare. the NATO forces in country are not in control of the hinterland, they are having trouble holding onto main routes and choke points. eventually i suspect their control will be limited to the cities and the

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