4 Canadian Soldiers killed in Afghanistan

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Like I said in another thread, it would be nice if we had a lot more troops in Afghanistan. I mean a large force of allied troops but other countries don't seem to have the stomach for it. Are we ready to commit a lot more troops and do it right?

They just committed another 450 troops and a squadron of up to 15 Leopard tanks. Way to go! You know the taliban are watching opinion polls back here, and what does Canada do? They UP their presence. I think that sends a great message. We aren't going anywhere.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

I think Arab is a language classification. Most Arabs are Islam but many Moslems such as in Pakistan, Iran, Afghanistan and Indonesia are not Arabic. From pictures and people I have met most Arabs are white but some seem to have some other blood. Being at the crossroads of civilization they've had many cultural and racial influences. Probably makes them stronger but we're all the same beneath our skins.

To add, most Arabs that we think of in the Middle east are Semites. Most Jews are also semites and are caucasion.

To add again, I was told by an Arab that they don't call their language Arabic but call it Mediterranean. Seems logical as the language is spoken by many people around that Sea.

I'm pretty sure that Arab is an ethnic classification like Persian's.
They think that they are white yes, I'm not sure how they would really be classified, but they definitely think that they are white. Probably would go part-way's to explain the great sales of Mein Kempf in the region.

[White Doors]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

It shouldn't matter what government did what for this mission. Canada is there, and that isn't changing. Even if the Liberals were still in power, we'd be at the same juncture.

You are correct, however if the previous government is trying to make 'hay' out of this government changing 'tactics' then we are obliged to call them the hypoctical, scum-bag liars that they are making themselves to be.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by arsenal

Well according the the CIA fact book and Wikipedia:
CIA -Fact Book - Afghanistan
Wikipedia - Afghanistan
CIA - Factbook - Canada

Which makes up 98.2% of the Afghan population Muslim. That would be pretty much the entire population.

Compared to Canada

70.3% in Canada are of the Christian faith.

Soo... because Canada is only 70% Christian... Afghanis mistaking Canada for a 'Christian nation' is totally out to lunch? I don't think its a far off assumption for them to make... just like Azure assumed they were Arabs, and he (presumably) has a first-world education. Seems easy to misconstrue other nation's make-up and intent, that was my point. I'm not surprised some Afghan's would believe we're part of a 'Christian' oriented occupation force.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

So why ask me to address them then? He asked oilers_fan, not me. Maybe you should go reread the question.

Lame. You responded to one of his points, but won't respond to the other because 'its not adressed to you'. The one you responded to wasn't adressed to you, so I don't see what's holding you back. Pretty much what I thought; you don't know what rules or procedures you wish Canadian troops didn't have to follow (and neither does oilers_fan). You're just a wide open mouth.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

Whoops.

Seems to me that most Arab countries are classified that way by the language they speak. Which I was not aware of.

Yeah... and you actually have an education in a developed country. Imagine how easy it is for Afghan's to misconstrue Canadian forces as part of a Christian occupation force. It makes sense, but only if you think about it.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

I actually thought Arab would be the classification for race, and not religion.

Most people in Canada are White...most people in Afghanistan are Arab. My POV though.

Guess I was wrong...although it has been pointed out that Afghanistan is overwhelmingly Muslim.

Right... but you said you didn't see them as Muslim, you saw them as Arab. Which was completely and totally wrong. They're not Arab, religiously or ethnically. Proves the point perfectly.

[metallicat]

I think your getting my opinion about ROE wrong, Agamemnon. It's not that I want our troops to start breaking every rule in the book to win this war, I just think it's a bad situation when the enemy CAN, and not worry about the same things we would have to worry about. I suppose the same thing can be said for pretty much every major conflict, but this just seems to be a glaring example.

There was that picture a couple of days ago that showed hundreds of Taliban fighters at a funeral, nicely lined up in the sights of an unmaned drone over Afghanistan, but they couldn't shoot them because the Americans can't shoot at people in a funeral. But the Taliban can suicide bomb troops while they are handing out toys to children.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by oilers_fan

I think your getting my opinion about ROE wrong, Agamemnon. It's not that I want our troops to start breaking every rule in the book to win this war, I just think it's a bad situation when the enemy CAN, and not worry about the same things we would have to worry about. I suppose the same thing can be said for pretty much every major conflict, but this just seems to be a glaring example.

There was that picture a couple of days ago that showed hundreds of Taliban fighters at a funeral, nicely lined up in the sights of an unmaned drone over Afghanistan, but they couldn't shoot them because the Americans can't shoot at people in a funeral. But the Taliban can suicide bomb troops while they are handing out toys to children.

Fair enough... but isn't there supposed to be a difference in the way our soldiers act compared to the way the insurgents act? We can't exactly start killing their civilians... can we? Round everyone up and put them into 'strategic hamlets' ala Vietnam so that everyone left in the countryside is fair game?

I think the rules of engagement that some chafe under are a necessary part of who we are as a country. I'm proud that we don't torture prisoners (I hope), and no matter how badly the war goes, I think torturing people for information is barbaric and inhuman.

[icarus]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Fair enough... but isn't there supposed to be a difference in the way our soldiers act compared to the way the insurgents act? We can't exactly start killing their civilians... can we? Round everyone up and put them into 'strategic hamlets' ala Vietnam so that everyone left in the countryside is fair game?

I think the rules of engagement that some chafe under are a necessary part of who we are as a country. I'm proud that we don't torture prisoners (I hope), and no matter how badly the war goes, I think torturing people for information is barbaric and inhuman.

Exactly. Just because a loose collection of radical zealots doesn't abide by the Geneva Convention doesn't mean we shouldn't either. Jeez.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Soo... because Canada is only 70% Christian... Afghanis mistaking Canada for a 'Christian nation' is totally out to lunch? I don't think its a far off assumption for them to make... just like Azure assumed they were Arabs, and he (presumably) has a first-world education. Seems easy to misconstrue other nation's make-up and intent, that was my point. I'm not surprised some Afghan's would believe we're part of a 'Christian' oriented occupation force.

Nope, it is very easy for them to make that mistake. Especially since almost their entire population is Muslim, it would be very easy for them assume that Canada's entire population is Christian.

There needs to be some education on both sides. The NATO forces there are not part of an occupying force, that want to convert them to Christianity. But they seem to beleive that this is the case. There has to be a happy medium between education and military force that can drive the point home. Just not sure exactly where that "point" is.

[CaptainCrunch]

I completely understand when someone states that they wish that our rules of engagement could mirror those of the people that we are fighting. I've always been part of that debate myself. But there is a simple truth to what we're doing there.

The rules of engagment that the Canadian Soldiers fight under are put in place to protect civilians first and foremost by not applying un-neccessary force. The rules of engagment also are put into place to protect the soldiers and adhere to international law and the various conventions that are put into place. You can't blaze away at approaching civilians without giving them three distinctive warnings (verbal, physical, warning shots). You can't dump an artillary salvo into the middle of a village without either some kind of warning, or an attempt at alternative solutions in the hopes of catching your enemy off guard. And you can't airstrike a large gathering of possible civilians, because its likely that your not going to kill some battle hardened experienced militant, its more likely that your going to kill a woman or a child that was there because the dead person was a relative.

If you break the rules of engagment all your going to do is turn people that should be your friends into enemies. At the end of the day and this sounds cold. If you live up to your standards, protect civilians and illustrate to them that the various insurgency groups are out there killing innocents, you will eventually turn the population against them and give them fewer places to hide. I

On a related note I was happy to see that we're committing more troops to Afghanistan just for the sheer purpose that it will allow us to be a bit more generous in troops getting required rests so fewer mistakes will happen. I was also happy to see that we're deploying the Leopard C2's into this war. The Leopard C2's might be obsolete compared to the modern main battle tank in turns of speed, armour and sheer firepower, but there are very few IED's that can penetrate its armor, its faster and more accurate on rough terrain. Has treads instead of wheels which is safer against RPG's. And its 105 mm main gun using HEAT rounds can hit targets up to 3 kms away with good to great accuracy. Use properly in a recon role it can be an effective vehicle in this kind of roll.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Soo... because Canada is only 70% Christian... Afghanis mistaking Canada for a 'Christian nation' is totally out to lunch? I don't think its a far off assumption for them to make... just like Azure assumed they were Arabs, and he (presumably) has a first-world education. Seems easy to misconstrue other nation's make-up and intent, that was my point. I'm not surprised some Afghan's would believe we're part of a 'Christian' oriented occupation force.

I'm actually wondering if you have any evidence of Afghani's referring to Canada as a Christian nation?

That point was made by a fellow poster.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Lame. You responded to one of his points, but won't respond to the other because 'its not adressed to you'. The one you responded to wasn't adressed to you, so I don't see what's holding you back. Pretty much what I thought; you don't know what rules or procedures you wish Canadian troops didn't have to follow (and neither does oilers_fan). You're just a wide open mouth.

No he asked oilers_fan, and not me. His other points weren't made with a specific reference.

You're trying to get me into an argument about the Geneva Convention. Its too bad I'm not biting, isn't it?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Agamemnon

Yeah... and you actually have an education in a developed country. Imagine how easy it is for Afghan's to misconstrue Canadian forces as part of a Christian occupation force. It makes sense, but only if you think about it.

Christian occupation force?

Again, where is that coming from?

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

Christian occupation force?

Again, where is that coming from?

We know full well that the loons are calling this another Crusade. Georgie himself refuted the idea today. The terrorists are using this "Christian occupation force" as a recruiting tool and it appears to be working. I don't think it's too farfetched to believe that it's a fairly widespread opinion amongst the general population.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

We know full well that the loons are calling this another Crusade. Georgie himself refuted the idea today. The terrorists are using this "Christian occupation force" as a recruiting tool and it appears to be working. I don't think it's too farfetched to believe that it's a fairly widespread opinion amongst the general population.

You mean President Bush? Who is Georgie?

And I'm not talking about the extremists either....as they make up a small portion of the population in Afghanistan. I'm looking for evidence that the Afghani people think the NATO led force is a "christian" occupation force.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Azure

You mean President Bush? Who is Georgie?

And I'm not talking about the extremists either....as they make up a small portion of the population in Afghanistan. I'm looking for evidence that the Afghani people think the NATO led force is a "christian" occupation force.

Oh right. I'm sorry I didn't give President Bush the respect he deserves. As usual though, your clever placement of an eye-roll showed me the error of my ways.

I'm afraid I can't offer much in the way of evidence that the Afghani people think the NATO led force (I thought we were talking about how the average Afghani would view Canada, but whatever) is a Christian occupation force. I thought I made that clear in my last post when I said I don't think it's far-fetched and gave my reason for believing so.

Do you think my reason was wrong?

Better yet, if your area of the world had several thousand foreign soldiers, the majority of them Muslim, marching around and killing some of the locals and whatnot, would it cross your mind that it might have something to do with religion?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Oh right. I'm sorry I didn't give President Bush the respect he deserves. As usual though, your clever placement of an eye-roll showed me the error of my ways.

I probably agree with you on the majority of his policies, but I still respect him, not for who he is, but for the office he holds.

I'm afraid I can't offer much in the way of evidence that the Afghani people think the NATO led force (I thought we were talking about how the average Afghani would view Canada, but whatever) is a Christian occupation force. I thought I made that clear in my last post when I said I don't think it's far-fetched and gave my reason for believing so.

Well the "Christian" occupation force was mentioned, so I assume that refers to the NATO led force.

I think the extremist will view the force as a "Christian" army, but I think the moderate Muslim would understand who is there, and why they are there. Especially if that moderate Afghani appreciates what Canada and the rest of the troops in Afghanistan are trying to do.

Do you think my reason was wrong?

I think your reason, if we're both referring to the comments made by President Bush, talks about the extremists view on Western influence in the ME.

Better yet, if your area of the world had several thousand foreign soldiers, the majority of them Muslim, marching around and killing some of the locals and whatnot, would it cross your mind that it might have something to do with religion?

Good point.

Comparison though? I assume it would be a known 'fact' that the majority of the foreign soldiers are Muslim. I don't think the NATO led force has any religious connotation.

Some may be Christian, some Muslim, some Hindu, some Buddhist, and some may also be atheist.

[Agamemnon]

Originally Posted by Azure

I'm actually wondering if you have any evidence of Afghani's referring to Canada as a Christian nation?

That point was made by a fellow poster.

Well... since you referred to Afghanistan as an Arab nation, which is totally incorrect, I'm guessing there's an Afghan or two who would mistake us for being a Christian nation in the same way (or are all Afghanis better educated about the world than you?). The only example I thought I required was your ignorance.