[Rumour] Flames still trying to re-sign Russell

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

A truly great 3rd liner who understands their role and plays it to a tee is hard to find. The Bouma contract is not a problem at all and he is definitely a core guy in my mind. Core guys don't have to be just the 1st and 2nd liners and top 4 d-men. You can have a depth player who is a core guy too and Bouma is that guy.

Don't understand at all the fans who are whining about Bouma's contract. His contract doesn't even deserve to be mentioned in the same sentence as "bad contract" IMO. Head scratcher for me.

Its not that hard to understand. We don't agree Bouma matches the description in the first paragraph.

[PeteMoss]

Centre (Yelle) > Winger (Bouma)

And Bouma's had one season where he's been more than 4th line player. Yelle also managed to stay healthy for most of his career while Bouma's has been injured a lot.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Benched

Personally I'd rather they DO give the rosters spots to the kids down the stretch when we're out of it. I'd rather do the 'what do we have here' tests when it doesn't matter, than testing all pre-season, and then coming out of the gates flat like this year.

Doesn't mean they'll stick, but I'd rather spend the last 20games of the year testing and seeing the young kids as research for the following year.

What I meant - and thought I explained it - is this:

I don't want prospects given a spot, ala Baertschi in Vancouver. "You are going to be our 2nd line LW"

What I do want to see, is them open up a spot on the 23-man roster so that prospects that have earned it, can be brought up to see what they can do. Create a window to bring guys up for testing.

In other words, we want the same thing.

[Enoch Root]

Bouma's contract is not a problem - at all.

Having several fringe guys all earning over $3M is, though. But again, I believe it's a transitional thing and in another year or so,they'll all be gone.

[SuperMatt18]

I agree that we haven't done a good job of letting our AHL guys sink or swim at the NHL level.

I look at the transition the Blackhawks took from 07-08 to 08-09 seasons.

In the 07-08 season the Hawks still had some good veterans like Robert Lang, Jason Williams, Yanic Perrault, Lapointe, etc.

Moving into the 08-09 season they moved out those vets and opened up their roster for a lot of young players, guys like Versteeg, Brouwer, Bolland, Fraser, & Hjalmarsson.

Those guys ran with the opportunity and then were a big part of that team becoming a force.

Flames are kind of at that same turning point now. They need to make sure we keep a couple of they key veterans, but it's time to get rid of the deadweight in the bottom 6 and the bottom pairing.

[IgiTang]

I absolutely love Bouma. He was starting to show what he brings to the table before he got hurt again. Problem with Bouma, if he wants to succeed, he has to play a somewhat reckless style. Thus, making him prone to injuries.

I'm not saying he's injury prone, but I feel he's gonna miss some games every season.

Can he make up the difference of miss games with putting up points when he's healthy? That's the gamble on him.

All the intangibles he brings (shot blocking, killing penalties, grit) are what you expect from any bottom 6 player. His salary is reflective of being able to do all that while putting up 30-40 points.

So far, due to injury, the gamble has not paid off.

[kehatch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Bouma's contract is not a problem - at all.

Having several fringe guys all earning over $3M is, though. But again, I believe it's a transitional thing and in another year or so,they'll all be gone.

Your correct that this is a problem that will go away after next season. If (and this is the discussion) they don't sign the next generation of bad contracts.

Bouma's contract isn't terrible because he is a functional player. But (in my opinion) he is overpaid based on a single productive season. That by itself isn't going to derail the rebuild. But if you sign Russell and Hudler to similarly over priced contracts the problem will continue.

Treliving has done some great things. He also signed the Raymond and Engelland deals and traded for Bollig. Was that a transitional strategy based on the rebuild? I think so. But it is why I am very curious how he handles his pending free agents.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

Bouma's contract is not a problem - at all.

Having several fringe guys all earning over $3M is, though. But again, I believe it's a transitional thing and in another year or so,they'll all be gone.

Bouma's contract is not a big problem but he is not a $2M+/year player IMO. Nor a guy who needs a three year deal.

I hope you are right that the contract issues are a transitional thing and will be gone in a year or so. But the existing management team (Treliving, Burke) signed the majority of those contracts so there is reason to be nervous they will do it again.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

Bouma's contract is not a big problem but he is not a $2M+/year player IMO. Nor a guy who needs a three year deal

The cap hit for Bouma was somewhat out of their control. Flames side offered 1.5M and Bouma's side asked for 2.5M. It was going into Arbitration that very day and it looked like Bouma's side was going to win that.

Salary Arbitration in Bouma's favor could have meant:

2.5M / 1Y
Qualifying offer @ 2.75M / 1Y, probably more to buy UFA years
UFA in 2017

2.2M / 3Y was a calculated risk that bought a UFA year and kept themselves away from the worst case scenario of arbitration. Overpayment? Maybe, but that was a consequence of Bouma's initial bridge deal / contract year stats.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The cap hit for Bouma was somewhat out of their control. Flames side offered 1.5M and Bouma's side asked for 2.5M. It was going into Arbitration that very day and it looked like Bouma's side was going to win that.

Salary Arbitration in Bouma's favor could have meant:

2.5M / 1Y
Qualifying offer @ 2.75M / 1Y, probably more to buy UFA years
UFA in 2017

2.2M / 3Y was a calculated risk that bought a UFA year and kept themselves away from the worst case scenario of arbitration. Overpayment? Maybe, but that was a consequence of Bouma's initial bridge deal / contract year stats.

If he gets $2.5M and you're really worried about it - just walk away from it and move on.

The arbitrator in the NHL isn't bound to pick one or the other offer. Highly unlikely it ends up at $2.5M.

Alex Chaisson who had fairly similar stats to Bouma (although he's done it for 2 years) was awarded 1.2M - he asked for $3M and the Sens offered $1M.

Mike Hoffman got $2M after asking for $3.4 and the Sens offering $1.75M.

If I was guessing he'd have gotten $1.75M.

[Strange Brew]

2.

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

The cap hit for Bouma was somewhat out of their control. Flames side offered 1.5M and Bouma's side asked for 2.5M. It was going into Arbitration that very day and it looked like Bouma's side was going to win that.

Salary Arbitration in Bouma's favor could have meant:

2.5M / 1Y
Qualifying offer @ 2.75M / 1Y, probably more to buy UFA years
UFA in 2017

2.2M / 3Y was a calculated risk that bought a UFA year and kept themselves away from the worst case scenario of arbitration. Overpayment? Maybe, but that was a consequence of Bouma's initial bridge deal / contract year stats.

Very helpful analysis. I would argue that given Bouma's history, a one year deal at $2.5 was less of a risk than a 3 year deal at $2.2.

Maybe he plays great and gets himself priced higher. That is not always the worst thing that can happen.

[Demetric]

2.2 is not the end of the world ... there are way bigger cap issues on guys that bring less to the table

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by Demetric

2.2 is not the end of the world ... there are way bigger cap issues on guys that bring less to the table

Agreed - but it points to the troubling trend of signing lower end of the roster players to long overpaid contracts which will be a problem once Gaudreau and Monahan get out of their ELCs.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Agreed - but it points to the troubling trend of signing lower end of the roster players to long overpaid contracts which will be a problem once Gaudreau and Monahan get out of their ELCs.

No it doesn't.

They signed those guys when they thought they were going to sucking.

That does not mean they will keep doing that.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Agreed - but it points to the troubling trend of signing lower end of the roster players to long overpaid contracts which will be a problem once Gaudreau and Monahan get out of their ELCs.

We're in a rebuild. Treliving made moves before he knew the team at the start of the rebuild cycle. It does not logically follow that he would continue to make those exact same type of moves when our salary structure is different and we're at a different point in the rebuild. There is no trend. Each offseason is a separate and unique scenario that they analyze differently. You can't read the past into the future.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

No it doesn't.

They signed those guys when they thought they were going to sucking.

That does not mean they will keep doing that.

That is pretty awful logic and I hope it's not true. A bad signing is a bad signing, as evidenced by the fact they can't give many of these guys away. Let's not rationalize it away, saying management didn't think it would matter because they thought the team would be bad.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

That is pretty awful logic and I hope it's not true. A bad signing is a bad signing, as evidenced by the fact they can't give many of these guys away. Let's not rationalize it away, saying management didn't think it would matter because they thought the team would be bad.

You don't seem to understand how much the situation of the team has changed since Treliving first took over. And that a decent signing in one situation can be bad in another. Context. You seem to be lacking it when evaluating the moves.

Imagine for a second that Gaudreau struggles to adapt to pro and is sent down to the minors for a lot of his rookie year. Imagine that Monahan has a sophomore slump. Our kids progressing at a fast rate was not a certainty to happen so don't pretend that it was.

Heck even I thought the Raymond signing might've been decent at the time. And now I'm probably one of the biggest haters of the move.

Circumstances have changed DRASTICALLY since those moves were first made. Yes, some of them look bad because of how the team progressed. But Treliving isn't a wizard, he didn't have a crystal ball that could've predicted Johnny and Monny's meteoric quick rise and Hudler's monster season.

Some of you are being unfair in your analysis of the moves, not acknowledging how much circumstances have changed.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

You don't seem to understand how much the situation of the team has changed since Treliving first took over. And that a decent signing in one situation can be bad in another. Context. You seem to be lacking it when evaluating the moves.

Imagine for a second that Gaudreau struggles to adapt to pro and is sent down to the minors for a lot of his rookie year. Imagine that Monahan has a sophomore slump. Our kids progressing at a fast rate was not a certainty to happen so don't pretend that it was.

Heck even I thought the Raymond signing might've been decent at the time. And now I'm probably one of the biggest haters of the move.

Circumstances have changed DRASTICALLY since those moves were first made. Yes, some of them look bad because of how the team progressed. But Treliving isn't a wizard, he didn't have a crystal ball that could've predicted Johnny and Monny's meteoric quick rise and Hudler's monster season.

Some of you are being unfair in your analysis of the moves, not acknowledging how much circumstances have changed.

I do understand context. If Gaudreau busts, that doesn't make the Raymond signing any better. Nor Engelland. Nor Stajan. Nor Bollig.

I am not trying to slam BT but your logic is fuzzy. You say the circumstances have changed drastically because the Flames were expected to suck. Well they are one of the worst teams in the league, which by my definition equates to sucking. And those signings still look horrible.

Evaluate the signings on their own merits. Guys like Engelland and Raymond were over paid with too much term for what they brought to the table. That is true whether the Flames were good or bad. If that is what it cost to sign Raymond, the Flames should have passed like every other team in the league.

That doesn't detract from the good moves BT has made but you need to be balanced IMO.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I agree that we haven't done a good job of letting our AHL guys sink or swim at the NHL level.

I look at the transition the Blackhawks took from 07-08 to 08-09 seasons.

In the 07-08 season the Hawks still had some good veterans like Robert Lang, Jason Williams, Yanic Perrault, Lapointe, etc.

Moving into the 08-09 season they moved out those vets and opened up their roster for a lot of young players, guys like Versteeg, Brouwer, Bolland, Fraser, & Hjalmarsson.

Those guys ran with the opportunity and then were a big part of that team becoming a force.

Flames are kind of at that same turning point now. They need to make sure we keep a couple of they key veterans, but it's time to get rid of the deadweight in the bottom 6 and the bottom pairing.

They need to keep going, but I think the team deserves some credit for starting this already.

The flames have 3 players who are pretty much rookies in their line up this year.
They have 5 or 6 more that are in 2nd or 3rd full year.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I do understand context. If Gaudreau busts, that doesn't make the Raymond signing any better. Nor Engelland. Nor Stajan. Nor Bollig.

I am not trying to slam BT but your logic is fuzzy. You say the circumstances have changed drastically because the Flames were expected to suck. Well they are one of the worst teams in the league, which by my definition equates to sucking. And those signings still look horrible.

Evaluate the signings on their own merits. Guys like Engelland and Raymond were over paid with too much term for what they brought to the table. That is true whether the Flames were good or bad. If that is what it cost to sign Raymond, the Flames should have passed like every other team in the league.

That doesn't detract from the good moves BT has made but you need to be balanced IMO.

The Raymond signing was a bad one. Clearly. I understand why we did it at the time because we didn't have a lot of options up front. You would have preferred we forced some kid into the lineup as a top 2 line scorer? Obviously the term was too long. Would have been fine if Raymond wasn't useless and actually scored 10-20 goals. Obviously Treliving and the scouts thought Raymond could contribute more. They were wrong. It isn't the end of the world though.

Engelland I have no problem with. Our problems with our defense salary structure are not strictly because of that signing. As an UFA d-man he was overpaid as they all are. I've liked him as a #6, he's been very solid last year and this year IMO.

Stajan at the time I thought the term and dollars were too long, I'll give you that. I think he still has some value though.

Bollig is kind of irrelevant move IMO. His salary and term isn't big enough to handicap us. Gave us another good vet and a guy who could help protect kids. I don't think anyone should get worked up about that signing because it just doesn't really impact us going forward negatively.

So yeah I don't agree with you on Engelland, he's been very solid. Raymond is worthless and a terrible signing but I think you and I both understand why he was signed. It didn't work out and it sucks that he's so useless and still under contract for another year but in the grand scheme of things it isn't going to handicap us much either.

I mean you'd think we're talking Brad Richards for 10 years or burying Andrew McDonald and his 5 million in the minors for years.

If these are Treliving's biggest mistakes in his tenure then we should be pretty happy IMO.