I'd rate him a B+ probably. Definitely a lot more good than bad.
The Good:
-Frolik signing
-Brodie extension
-Hamilton trade
-drafting in his tenure
-locking up Bouma
-fixing the RH defense issues by adding Hamilton, Engelland
The Bad:
-Raymond
-Setoguchi
-not getting rid of Raymond yet
-overspent slightly on depth signings (Bollig, Engelland)
-three goalie fiasco
Most of the bad stuff is depth moves and luckily he didn't sign anybody to super term except Frolik so none of it will punish us for years. This trade deadline will be huge for him and this should be re-done post deadline as he needs to handle our excessive spending on our 5-7 defensemen and potentially get value for Hudler/Russell/Jones if we're not re-signing them.
He's looking long term and we're in great shape long term. The organization has never had as much good young talent in my entire time of watching the team. Some of that is Sutter, some Feaster and some Treliving. He's certainly looking miles ahead of Feaster in his trades so far, his biggest mistakes where in the summer he came in before he knew the team well so I think those are the easiest mistakes to forgive. At least he didn't come in and waive St. Louis and deal Giguere in his first few months like Craig Button did right?
No huge mistakes (Raymond the worst mistake), some big wins (Brodie contract, Hamilton trade). Solid job so far and I'm not really worried about long term.
My biggest beef with Treliving is that - in my view - he didn't really recognize the true strength of our team's speed last season. I know he wanted to get bigger to play more of a puck possession game, but we really wore down a lot of teams last season with relentless skating.
I miss Byron.
I actually liked Byron, but while we did have good team speed, Anahaim made us look like midgets. And we didn't lose a lot of speed from Byron's 4th line minutes, we lost most of the speed cause other teams neutralized our transition game of hitting the forward with the long bomb pass.
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- I'm not a fan of Treliving's "sign vets long term to create competition" approach. Competition should exist but it should allow for flexibility. Signing Derek Grant, Setoguchi and Trading for Shore/Hamilton were good examples of creating competition. Bringing in Engelland, Raymond were bad examples because they didn't make the team better yet held/have held back guys like Wotherspoon, Kulak, Granlund, and Baertschi from taking the next step (Granlund being a center I see as a direct consequence of that). No, I don't buy that Engelland is a better hockey player than Tyler Wotherspoon. He's just a "more veteran bad hockey player" than Tyler Wotherspoon. I also don't buy that Brandon Bollig is a better hockey player than David Wolf. The fact that the Blackhawks, who are not even "rebuilding" can churn out multiple NHL rookies on a yearly basis and our only non-top-5OA-pick-rookie this year didn't even last a 9 game audition says a lot about Treliving's philosophy. I honestly think this had some effect on Ortio's miserable season too, though I'm not going to get too far into the three goalie situation.
Personally I'd love to find a way to get Bollig, Raymond and Hiller off the roster so I'm on board with the majority on this one.
I like Stajan and Jones though, and think they serve a purpose (both overpaid on current contracts, Stajan not too much).
But I don't see it as competition as you suggest ... I see it as a management group that honestly thought the team would suck for 3 years and needed
a) guys to get to the cap floor
b) good guys in the room to protect the culture
but instead ended up with a playoff team and two young players heading for monster second contracts.
If they had a chance to go back they wouldn't have done those moves but the team has altered its core faster than they expected in my opinion.
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I voted, but this trade deadline and off season will ultimately determine if Trevy is going in the hockey smart direction or is choosing a short term profitable direction
A and B grade ratings for a guy that has the 26th team in the NHL? These guys are judged on their ability to get results. The guy isn't getting them. He has made some good moves, but he has made some bad ones. The end results have not been good for us this year. Treliving is responsible for those results.
This is short-sighted.
I don't feel it's appropriate to judge a new GM in a rebuilding organization on the team's results over the first two years.
You're giving him lower than a B because in spite of the fact that the team made the playoffs in year 2 of the rebuild, they're struggling during the first half of year 3? And in spite of the fact that he's made some fantastic long term moves? I'm really glad Treliving and management continue to be committed to the long term future, because some fans would have them trade away long term success for possible short term gain.
It seems there can't be a clear grade for him. Some people like myself think he's doing well all things considered. He secured some long term pieces for the future and is developing a good core to build around.
Others think that his grade should reflect how the team is doing right now. I don't think this way of grading him is fair since it's known that the Flames are in a rebuild. The team played amazing last year and got into the playoffs but this year things aren't going as well but the rebuild is still on track.
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Most of the points of contention in this thread revolve around bit players and short-term situations.
For the GM, I am more concerned with long-term plans, direction of the team, and bigger roster moves.
For me, he has:
established a strong identity, and stated what he wants the team to be
committed to the right players IMO (Giordano, Brodie, Gaudreau, Monahan), and acquired another key piece in Hamilton
has established that he will develop prospects slowly and thoroughly
has established that he is beyond diligent and hard-working
has been an excellent face/ambassador for the franchise
and for those things (the things that I think define a GM), I give him an A.
For the ongoing and shorter-term roster moves, the Setoguchis and Engellands and Russells, I think it is important to remember that it is a team in transition. It is a team that has been in the early stages of a rebuild. Having some filler pieces on the roster is inevitable. And they come and go, without any real impact on the long-term plans.
Also, it is important to keep in mind that players are humans, and invariably unpredictable. When acquiring or drafting players, there is a random element to it. Some guys blossom, while others flop. IMO, rating a GM on those random events is somewhat mis-guided.
I am more concerned with how he transitions from having these filler-players, to building the team he wants, going forward. That is a harder step, and what he should ultimately be judged on.
But so far so good, IMO.
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He has shown great capability in acquiring and maintaining his core. Great trade for Hamilton. Good pick-up of Frolik. Great job signing Brodie, Backlund, and Giordano to appropriate contracts. I have full confidence he will sign Monahan and Gaudreau to good contracts. He has also found a great balance between staying competitive while building towards the future. This is what is important so I give him a strong B.
But I do have concerns with how he manages the depth. I put this in another thread, but the top half of our roster is paid 33-million while the bottom half is paid 36-million. He inherited some of those bad depth contracts. But he created a number of them as well. It isn't just the dollar figure that is disturbing. Most of these players have term.
How he handles Hudler / Russell at the TDL and leading to next summer will tell us a lot about him. You can give him a bit of a pass on the Raymond / Engelland contracts because he was overpaying for leadership during a rebuild. But we are beyond the point we should be overpaying for players.
The Raymond contract is only bad now because of 3 kids who came out of nowhere and completely obliterated the the wing situation. That's a good thing.
If we are more honest based on the context of how last season started...
Spoiler!
Our LW was THIS last season: Ferland, Gaudreau came out of nowhere and effed it up. We were lucky this happened. It wasn't foreseeable at the time.
Hudler (Moved to RW)
Glencross (1st/2nd LW to trade to retired in less than 1 year)
Raymond (supposed to be 2nd place holder for a kid for 3 years to pushed out of lineup in 1 season)
Bouma (Best 3rd liner to hot year to injuries)
Bollig (Place holder for 4th line plus deterrent for someone to bully our kids)
-----
Baertschi (Gone)
Wolf?
?
?
Our RW was THIS last season. Jooris came and he's a regular because we did't have anything there.
Jones (To our 3rd/4th liner)
? Plug Hudler as fix (Injured)
McGrattan (Love him, but OMG please. Moved out)
Setoguchi (Meh, long shot and need the bodies on this side anyways. Moved out)
Engelland (Haven't needed him here)
-------
Poirier? (Haven't moved up)
?
?
Our C was THIS last season. Monahan exploded in a way we didn't expect. Our bottom C disappointed.
Stajan (now our 4th)
Backlund (Didn't move)
Monahan (Now our 1st, completely a surprise)
Colborne (Moved to RW for need and other reasons)
Byron
---
Granlund? (moved to LW due to fit reasons)
?
D. Ignore Hamilton now as it was a complete impossibility prior to his acquisition.
Gio - Brodie (believed to be second fiddle to Gio)
Wideman - Russell (not even sure he was supposed to be above Smid)
Smid - Engelland
---
Wotherspoon
?
?
This corps was so thin we looked to Douglas Murry and Schlemko to fill in the holes!
Hiller (Rumors he would be moved in off season, didn't pan out)
Ramo
OMG Ortio
In the off season, many of us felt hesitation to have Ortio has a fully time backup because we weren't sure of Hiller/Ortio combo. (Ramo was doing to be gone prior to re-signing)
Treliving showed up with an "ok" stocked cupboard, most of his picks intact, bare bones skeleton roster and maybe 1-2 stars at most.
He now has an overflowing cupboard, all his picks intact, a decent roster based to begin tweaking and upgrades to make and 3-5 emerging stars depending on your definition. That's a huge success. He has not sacrificed any facet to improve other facets.
Look how insanely different our lineups are now in comparison to last season starting. Nearly all of this due to insane explosion of talent on the farm. NOT at a level any GM or team usually expects AND the farm is still exploding with talent even with the talent we gave full time roster spots.
I give Treliving a B+. He's done amazing things. He's not perfect, but the flaws weren't bad handcuffing flaws like other teams are dealing with. Everything they said they were going to do, they have done it. I will only consider lowering that score if the next moves add more money to the bottom lines and/or he lessens the value/talent on the roster with bad trades.
For those giving a C or lower, I have no idea what the heck you guys expected from him.
Treliving was brought in to be a steward for our rebuild. He has met and exceeded that. Let's not forget we were happy to have entertaining games and sit 30th last season and hope to draft McDavid at the beginning of the season. When management said "playoffs" is the goal we LAUGHED AT THEM but they still delivered! Aaron Ward was equally laughed at as well for suggesting the same.
Conroy had an interview where he said we may back slide performance wise last off season. This has happened. Everything else, according to plan.
If Raymond and the 3 headed goalie monster are the WORST things he has done, we are in damn good hands.
/end rant
Last edited by DoubleF; 01-20-2016 at 11:48 AM.
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The three goalie thing was a problem only because all three goalies were terrible. Hartley is to blame as well for not giving anyone a shot to run with the net a bit. As soon as Ramo started playing on a regular basis - he did fine.
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Originally Posted by Phanuthier
I actually liked Byron, but while we did have good team speed, Anahaim made us look like midgets. And we didn't lose a lot of speed from Byron's 4th line minutes, we lost most of the speed cause other teams neutralized our transition game of hitting the forward with the long bomb pass.
Yeah, I'm not sure on that. Speed/quickness from Jooris and Byron helped make those long-bombs successful - just having them break quickly opened up room even if the pass isn't made.
We did look like smurfs against Anaheim, but this season's team would get destroyed even faster imo - and that's with Giordano and Hamilton and Frolik. It would be an interesting experiment to add those three players to the team that played Anaheim and under that old system.
We have become a one-line team more than we were last season, with Gaudreau doing his thing, and three lines just sputtering for the most part. Not an improvement on last season's efforts, despite adding some better players.
I know why Treliving did what he did, but we are simply a worse team this season. We had too many bodies, and I don't believe he picked (or Hartley in some cases) the best ones.
He definitely needs more time. To date, I'll give him a B because he does have a couple of home run moves in terms of getting Hamilton, and the current contract that T.J. Brodie has. The UFA Free agent signings, have not been great though, than again...that's free agency especially with the team he had to work with. I think he did overpay Bouma a bit too, but again, it is shorter term.
We'll see what he does with the team at the deadline, but last year he was willing to take a longer term approach with a team that was in the playoff mix, so I would have to think it's going to be similar this year.
Realistically given what he inherited, it's going to be where the team is at in the summer of 2017 that one will have the required information to really give a solid judgement on his work. As of today, I'd see it as a progress mark, where the feedback is helping him make some key choices he has to deal with in the next 6 months.
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The goaltending situation has sucked but he tried to correct it. Our tandem last year worked pretty damn well and despite that he was still trying to find a better solution this off season. Maybe he tried to trade Hiller and there were no takers. Also with Ramo being UFA he didn't know if he would sign elsewhere so you need Hiller as an insurance policy. The prices were probably steep and I'd rather him wait now then overpay. We don't need an amazing tender right now. Sure it would be nice but this team is still rebuilding and I'd much rather him make the right move for the long term success of the team than a quick fix or another stop gap. Everyone wants better tending including Treliving but the moves have to make sense and I think some fans forget that.
Treliving has done a good job so far. Not terrific but far from bad.
Based on this year i am more interested to see who he gets rid of and how negotiations go with the Johnny, Monahan contracts.
Wideman, Raymond, Jooris, Jones, Colborne have to get dealt. I would like to see him test the waters on a Hudler trade even though i am a Jiri fan.
Personally I'd love to find a way to get Bollig, Raymond and Hiller off the roster so I'm on board with the majority on this one.
I like Stajan and Jones though, and think they serve a purpose (both overpaid on current contracts, Stajan not too much).
But I don't see it as competition as you suggest ... I see it as a management group that honestly thought the team would suck for 3 years and needed
a) guys to get to the cap floor
b) good guys in the room to protect the culture
but instead ended up with a playoff team and two young players heading for monster second contracts.
If they had a chance to go back they wouldn't have done those moves but the team has altered its core faster than they expected in my opinion.
I agree with you on b). But I am not on board with a) if that was truly their thinking. If you are trying to get to the cap floor, you should be focused on 1 and 2 year deals. A 3 year deal takes away too much flexibility.
As for the young guys surprising everyone by earning roster spots, who exactly are we referring to? Gaudreau? Was him making the team that big a surprise? Monahan? He already had a year under his belt when Raymond was signed. Jooris? Is he really the one making the veterans expendable?
IMO it is less about the young players being such a surprise but the fact that some of these fringe veterans just haven't been very good.
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Originally Posted by New Era
The biggest error is still the goaltending mess. Treliving has to own this. It was all his decision and on his watch. He screwed this up and it is all on him. Do I think it was coincidental that this team started playing better and getting better results when Hiller went down? Nope. Treliving screwed up by creating the three headed monster. He should have dumped Hiller when he had the chance. As this played out it hurt the team and totally derailed a guy (Ortio) I think they were counting on having an impact this year and next. Really really poor management there.
Unless you were a fly on the wall in BT's office none of us knows for certain if he made any attempts to trade Hiller. For all we know there may have been offers that fell through or the fact that other teams weren't interested.
The fact that he got a 22 year-old Dougie Hamilton for three draft picks, and then signed him to a five-year deal with a 5.75 cap hit, gives him a solid A in my books.
