Thoughts on Treliving so far?

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Not sure most of these should be on a list of "moves"

I edited your list as bottom roster decisions are more necessary then team shaping.

I think the Hamilton move buys him a tonne of time, and he couldn't let Giordano walk so the contract has value in that he's playing well now, and should play well for a few years. Factor in culture and leadership and that one shouldn't bite him too hard.

If Treliving is going to get credit for his good moves/decisions then he has to take some #### for his bad ones. You shouldn't be able to pull a Tinordi and ignore the stuff you choose because it hurts the narrative you're pushing. All of the moves and decisions come into play and count.

I don't disagree with you on the Giordano contract. He had to get something done, I just think he may have paid a bit too much in term and that could hurt he team in the long run. The early part of this season had that decision looking disastrous but Gio has got his game together to the point where he is still a solid player on the backend. What is going to be scary is when Brodie is due his new contract. Gio's sets the standard so start from there and go up.

I think you can't ignore the bottom of the lineup signings like you suggest. They are equally important as the guys at the top of the line up, and in a capped world may be more important. You have to get value out of these guys. You can't overpay them as it will ripple through the lineup. You also can't have a guy come in and underperform to the levels we've seen from some of these guys. Those contacts then become impossible to move and handcuff the team from making potential moves. Mistakes at the bottom end are just as important as moves up top. Think about all the money wasted in the pressbox each night. That money could have been used on a player that could really help in an area of weakness.

The biggest error is still the goaltending mess. Treliving has to own this. It was all his decision and on his watch. He screwed this up and it is all on him. Do I think it was coincidental that this team started playing better and getting better results when Hiller went down? Nope. Treliving screwed up by creating the three headed monster. He should have dumped Hiller when he had the chance. As this played out it hurt the team and totally derailed a guy (Ortio) I think they were counting on having an impact this year and next. Really really poor management there.

The last thing that I did not mention but should be stacked up on the con side of the ledger is the Hartley situation. The coaching staff is not having the positive impact it should and is generating poor results in many areas. Our systems are really crap, and that is on the coaches. Our special teams are complete garbage, or breakouts are predictable, and the personnel decisions are atrocious. Treliving could have addressed some of these challenges with some minor moves. Hartley plays certain players way too much, name it hurts the team. If we can see this I would hope to god the GM sees this as well. He could easily Billy Beane some of these guys and force Hartley's hand. He could shuffle the coaching staff or fire one of the assistants. There are ways to change the dynamics and influence the coaching decisions from the GMs office. I wish Treliving would have a little more influence in this regard because the team is not getting results as it is. This may be holding too high an expectation, which is why I did not originally include it. But I still think that this is a part of the GMs job and something to consider.

[DiracSpike]

You guys are harsh. Pretty much any move that BT made that could be considered "bad" was extremely low risk and hasn't cost this team anything. He's had to deal with a constant moving target of fan expectations and how the team performs.

The Hamilton trade alone should be enough for an A, executes perfect asset management throughout the season to land a piece that this team desperately needed. I think BT is the best GM this team has had in my lifetime

[Parallex]

Mixed results. Has made some good moves and some bad ones. Made some good draft picks and some bad ones. I guess I'd say he's been average.

He's really got to cut the bad money deals... the club is spending way way way too much on depth.

[Fighting Banana Slug]

Solid B+ for me. Not perfect by any means, but his thought process and vision that he has explained in interviews many times is bang on. I think we are lucky to have him.

[PeteMoss]

I look at the Giordano contract as one of those you have to do knowing it will likely bite you towards the end of it. If you don't sign him - you're not going to find a replacement anywhere and very rarely do trades where you unload a star for futures work out. No idea what Gio would fetch in a trade but likely not much more than what the Flames paid for Hamilton - so not really sure that helps you out in anyway.


As for Treliving - I think he's done well with the bigger moves, but he has to get away from the D.Sutter disease of overpaying bottom of the roster guys and just let young guys sink or swim. You can't convince me the team would be any worse off playing rookies in a small roles instead of guys like Bollig, Raymond etc.

[Strange Brew]

I give him a C+ as I want to see how this trade deadline and offseason work out. Hamilton deal was extremely solid and got good value for Glencross and Baertschi at last year's deadline.

But I don't like the contract situation of the team and starting to wonder who the next wave of young players joining the team will be.

And I do believe its fair to criticize him for not making certain deals over the summer (Hudler, Wideman, Hiller). Yeah maybe the trade market wasn't great. But then you can't give him credit for good deals either because there was a receptive trade market either.

Within a year or so expectations will be higher for this team.

[Azhouse]

Raymond and Colborne need to be waived (both liabilities). Start rewarding the guys in the minors.

This is more on Hartley but please put an end to the Hiller experiment.

[Super-Rye]

I'll give him a B.

Bringing in Hamilton and Frolik were really good moves that will help this team in the long term.

A lot of the bad is negated by the fact that he hasn't really handed out any term. Raymond and Engelland have another year on their deals after this season and then the Flames can cut bait and have some extra money to play with.

However his handling of the crease this off season was disastrous, and the Flames may go from an unacceptable 3 headed monster this season, to having absolutely no one next season.

All in all I'm pretty satisfied with what Treliving has done, but the real test for Treliving will come this offseason.

He needs to find a somewhat longer term goaltending solution between now and the beginning of next season.

He also needs to figure out the defense because if the Flames do re-sign Russell (hopefully if they do it's a home town discount) then the Flames will have WAY too much money tied up in their bottom 3 defenders and 2 of Wideman, Engelland, and Smid will definitely have to go.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by New Era

If Treliving is going to get credit for his good moves/decisions then he has to take some #### for his bad ones. You shouldn't be able to pull a Tinordi and ignore the stuff you choose because it hurts the narrative you're pushing. All of the moves and decisions come into play and count.

Sorry I ignored such important moves as signing Setoguchi and Byron to franchise crippling contracts and bringing in Ryan Wilson during training camp and stunting the development of our once promising young defencemen.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

Sorry I ignored such important moves as signing Setoguchi and Byron to franchise crippling contracts and bringing in Ryan Wilson during training camp and stunting the development of our once promising young defencemen.

No, but you completely dismissed the goaltending fiasco which killed the team out of the gate and set a prospect on a very poor trajectory during the most critical year of his career. Seriously, how many people that are high level managers can make a mistake of this magnitude, have immediate negative results that cripple their business unit, and actually not get sacked? I think the only thing that saved his ass was the Hamilton trade. As Bingo said, that home run allows Treliving an opportunity to stand there and take strike three. That's why I say I it's his next at bat that will define him.

[GB70]

I rated the Gm a solid B. Yes like everyone that's a human being. There are good moves and bad moves. Yea Gio's contract is ugly. But it isn't back breaking yet. His questionable moves have largely been low key and minor. The goaltending three headed monster is on the GM, the coaching staff and the goaltenders. There's enough equal blame on them all with that one.

The signings of raymond , engelland were needed for cap floor purposes. England stepped up last season when gio went down. He's filling an ugly but needed role on the team so that contract isn't horrid for me. Raymond has had ample grade A chances to be better and squandered them greatly, that's on the player.

The Head coach , our special teams or rather a total lack of... these are things needing to be looked at with greater scrutiny by the GM. How this is handled and how the pending UFA's are handled. Will be more telling to what sort of a GM we have in Treliving. This is a poll that I feel is premature, training camp for next season should be a more realistic revisit with what our GM has done or not done.

[Clever_Iggy]

I gave him a B but it's more like a B- or C+. The Hamilton acquisition (A) and the Giordano contract offset (D/F) as do the Brodie deal (A) and the goaltending fiasco (F). The Raymond/Enggland (D) deals were poor but understandable given the team at the time but that was more than offset by trading Sven and Glencross (A).

From now until the start of next season is when he can make his mark:

1) what he does with Hudler, Jones and Russell;
2) what he does with the goalies (2 UFAs and a RFA);
3) what the Monahan and Gaudreau extensions look like; and
4) how he approaches old/bubble guys: Raymond, Bollig, Smid and Wideman versus how he promotes young/potential guys.

This poll on October 1st-ish versus today will be very interesting.

[Poe969]

How was he supposed to handle the goaltending situation? He thought he had a deal in place and it fell through. Ortio had to be dealt with because he needed to come up and he likely would have been picked off of waivers. He couldn't find any takers for them, played them then put them on waivers.

Some people here are making it sound like he had 2 proven starting goalies and traded them away for next to nothing and those goalies are doing really well right now playing for other teams...that's vancouver, not Calgary.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

I look at the Giordano contract as one of those you have to do knowing it will likely bite you towards the end of it.

^^ This. There is no way you could have let Gio walk. There is also no way you let this drag on into the season, it would have been a major distraction.

Though we ended up with a distraction with the 3 headed goalie monster, and now Ortio (last year's AHL MVP) is playing like crap, took Ramo a few months to get his game together and Hiller is a nightmare. To me, thats Trelivings biggest mistake was letting this go as far as it did. I think that killed our season more than anything.

The rest (Raymond, Engelland; I don't mind Bollig, I still get why he's here) I get why he did it, though in retrospect it was 1 year too long - if it were a 2 year deal instead of 3, it would have been a smoother transition. We'll see what the penalty for his mistake was. He inherited 2 of Feaster's cap anchor contracts in Wideman and Jones and 1 of Burke's cap anchors in Matt Stajan. Backlund might have been 1 year too long depending on Jankowski's development, we'll see.

His big wins were obviously Hamilton, and getting picks for Sven/Glencross. The Frolik deal is ok.

[Poe969]

How his the Giordano contract that bad? Is it wrong to think that he can at least play the way he's playing now if not better for the next few years? Can people already tell that he's going to be terrible in the future, if so I don't know why you're using your powers like this, there are way better things I'd be doing if I could tell the future.

[Tinordi]

Originally Posted by New Era

No, but you completely dismissed the goaltending fiasco which killed the team out of the gate and set a prospect on a very poor trajectory during the most critical year of his career. Seriously, how many people that are high level managers can make a mistake of this magnitude, have immediate negative results that cripple their business unit, and actually not get sacked? I think the only thing that saved his ass was the Hamilton trade. As Bingo said, that home run allows Treliving an opportunity to stand there and take strike three. That's why I say I it's his next at bat that will define him.

Just spitballin here but hasn't the goaltending worked out in the end?

I mean wasn't signing Ramo actually the best course of action after they lost out on the big goalies on the trade market?

The alternative was running with two demonstrably worse goalies in Hiller and Ortio for the whole season. It should be emphasized that much to the chagrin of most delusional fans that Ortio is not a very good goalie right now. And would a Hiller driven net really have delivered the Flames from salvation any more than they are right now?

I'm sick of this talk about the three head goalie monster. When you say that you are saying that you wish the Flames overpaid for Jones or Talbot. Just be honest about it.

Next time you complain about the goaltending saying something like "Treliving really gets a bad mark for not addressing the three-headed goalie monster instead say this "Treliving really should have overpaid for Jones or Talbot."

[troutman]

B - not as truculent as we should be.

Like that there is a longer range plan.

[saillias]

I'm just glad there isn't a "In GM I trust" attitude around the fanbase anymore. Man that was a tough decade to be critical of management.

[Phanuthier]

Also, I think one major consideration that isn't being taken into account regarding Giordano's contract - the CBA has a opt-out date in 2019 (4 years into Gio's contract) or the CBA expires in 2022 (just after Gio retires).

Not sure how global economics play into this but any contract that goes beyond 2022 (7-8 year deals, starting 2016) could essentially look like 6 year with the next year eaten by a lockout (and potential compliance buyouts thereafter?) or the equivalent if the CBA is not extended in 2019.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by New Era

No, but you completely dismissed the goaltending fiasco which killed the team out of the gate

I dismiss it. The team in front of the goalies was giving up too many Grade A chances. Should not matter to a pro goalie that the 3rd goalie is in the Press Box or Stockton.