May 2015 Provincial Election Thread v2

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by Jacks

There were some runours about Jason Kenney being courted to take over the PC Party.

Never heard of it and if I were Kenney, if I were him I wouldn't want to do it after witnessing the fate of Prentice. Provincial politics is small potato for these federal guys.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Mr.Coffee

^ good post but I wish at the last paragraph along the lines of hard work and resilient yadda yadda yadda he added incredibly lucky that we were bestowed with a highly valuable natural resource that's economic benefits should not be squandered.

Let's face it, Albertans are more lucky than hard working. Not to say people here are not hard working, but it's mostly luck. Slam away, but one of the worst qualities of Albertans is all the back patting we do, when, especially at times like this- we really have squandered most of our good fortune.

But the gist of that article is bang on, the PC's screwed this up for so many years. Not much of what's going on really should be attributed to the NDP government. I was talking to some folks today at the office (I work at a producer), ever single one of us agreed that at the end of the day, it's price that is driving this downturn. Not royalties, not regulations, not any of the other "uncertainty" stuff... price. Let's not forget how badly the PC's and their corrupt, moronic, selfish, arrogant ways really drove us into this situation.

No insult intended, but its not like the Oil just bubbled out of the ground for part time troglodytes to scoop up with a shovel. The sheer will and determination and cost and effort that's gone into exploiting this resource does indicate that this province works very hard for its money. Every province has a resource that it can exploit for profit, some do and some don't. You can point to Quebec as a province that doesn't and they're constantly sitting there getting hand outs.

And yes, you're partially right, the Oil prices do have a major effect on the economy. But the Provincial Governments antics have pretty much destroyed this provinces energy sectors confidence in terms of continual investment. Their bizarre interim budget combined with things like the minimum wage increase have pretty much put the breaks on small business, the upcoming carbon tax is going to hurt everyone in the province at the worst possible time.

Notley's arrogance and the governments continual delays of things like the legislative session, the budget when the NDP were running federally, and the royalty review all have a fairly significant hand in this provinces economic tumble.

You can't keep pointing to one factor our of many and say, its that guys fault. Every speech, every word and every decision by this government resonates, and even more so now that confidence is so low.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by darklord700

Never heard of it and if I were Kenney, if I were him I wouldn't want to do it after witnessing the fate of Prentice. Provincial politics is small potato for these federal guys.

Would think that Kenney is more then likely to throw his hate in the Federal ring.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Would think that Kenney is more then likely to throw his hate in the Federal ring.

Freudian slip?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by killer_carlson

However, the institutional employment hasn't changed. And the attitude of many of the workers is that they sacrificed salary for job security during the boom.

Sacrifice salary? So the salaries of public sector employees in this province haven't gone up far faster than inflation over the last 15 years? And teachers and nurses don't make tens of thousands of dollars a year more than their counterparts in other provinces?

Sorry, but if Alberta public sector workers are too dumb to recognize the tremendous gains in compensation they've enjoyed due to the O&G industry in this province, then I don't have any sympathy. They can move to Manitoba and see how much they enjoy it.

Originally Posted by c.t.ner

While I agree on the principal that the WRP needing to sweep their rural base and also one of edmonton/calgary to win, the big wildcard with that is that electoral boundaries are to be reconfigured before the next election (http://www.elections.ab.ca/resources...ommission-act/). Given that the NDP are in government AND that there is a stark balance between many rural seats (some only representing ~15K people) and urban seats (some representing ~45K people), there are rumours that we'll see more urban seats and less rural seats created for the next election. There is also the possibility that we'll see a reduction in the overall number of seats, which may shift some of the balance to urban centres and away from rural alberta.

About the only thing I'm optimistic about with the NDP regime is that they'll finally address the disproportionate power rural voters have in this province. If the WR get in, we'll see rural votes continue to be worth 2-3 times as much as urban votes. That's an embarrassment to democracy, and a gross distortion of the will of the citizens of this province.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

No insult intended, but its not like the Oil just bubbled out of the ground for part time troglodytes to scoop up with a shovel. The sheer will and determination and cost and effort that's gone into exploiting this resource does indicate that this province works very hard for its money. Every province has a resource that it can exploit for profit, some do and some don't. You can point to Quebec as a province that doesn't and they're constantly sitting there getting hand outs.

And yes, you're partially right, the Oil prices do have a major effect on the economy. But the Provincial Governments antics have pretty much destroyed this provinces energy sectors confidence in terms of continual investment. Their bizarre interim budget combined with things like the minimum wage increase have pretty much put the breaks on small business, the upcoming carbon tax is going to hurt everyone in the province at the worst possible time.

Notley's arrogance and the governments continual delays of things like the legislative session, the budget when the NDP were running federally, and the royalty review all have a fairly significant hand in this provinces economic tumble.

You can't keep pointing to one factor our of many and say, its that guys fault. Every speech, every word and every decision by this government resonates, and even more so now that confidence is so low.

Well put sir. Well put indeed.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

Would think that Kenney is more then likely to throw his hate in the Federal ring.

Even though I like Kenney I don't think he has a chance. They will elect a leader from the East almost guaranteed, that's politics unfortunately. My money would be on MacKay.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

No insult intended, but its not like the Oil just bubbled out of the ground for part time troglodytes to scoop up with a shovel. The sheer will and determination and cost and effort that's gone into exploiting this resource does indicate that this province works very hard for its money. Every province has a resource that it can exploit for profit, some do and some don't. You can point to Quebec as a province that doesn't and they're constantly sitting there getting hand outs.

And yes, you're partially right, the Oil prices do have a major effect on the economy. But the Provincial Governments antics have pretty much destroyed this provinces energy sectors confidence in terms of continual investment. Their bizarre interim budget combined with things like the minimum wage increase have pretty much put the breaks on small business, the upcoming carbon tax is going to hurt everyone in the province at the worst possible time.

Notley's arrogance and the governments continual delays of things like the legislative session, the budget when the NDP were running federally, and the royalty review all have a fairly significant hand in this provinces economic tumble.

You can't keep pointing to one factor our of many and say, its that guys fault. Every speech, every word and every decision by this government resonates, and even more so now that confidence is so low.

What are these resources that aren't being used for profit?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Sacrifice salary? So the salaries of public sector employees in this province haven't gone up far faster than inflation over the last 15 years? And teachers and nurses don't make tens of thousands of dollars a year more than their counterparts in other provinces?

Sorry, but if Alberta public sector workers are too dumb to recognize the tremendous gains in compensation they've enjoyed due to the O&G industry in this province, then I don't have any sympathy. They can move to Manitoba and see how much they enjoy it.



About the only thing I'm optimistic about with the NDP regime is that they'll finally address the disproportionate power rural voters have in this province. If the WR get in, we'll see rural votes continue to be worth 2-3 times as much as urban votes. That's an embarrassment to democracy, and a gross distortion of the will of the citizens of this province.

Why do you want to harm the economy more by reducing the income of albertans that still have jobs? According to you, if Alberta had the same taxes as the next lowest jurisdiction in Canada there would be no deficit?

In a consumer economy in a recession the government shouldn't be putting their thumb on the scale to turn 150 000 job losses into 170 000.

That doesn't make any sense. I mean, this is basically the exact same argument as those opposed to a royalty review.

Cutting public sector salaries will make Alberta's economics WORSE, not better.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Why do you want to harm the economy more by reducing the income of albertans that still have jobs? According to you, if Alberta had the same taxes as the next lowest jurisdiction in Canada there would be no deficit?

In a consumer economy in a recession the government shouldn't be putting their thumb on the scale to turn 150 000 job losses into 170 000.

That doesn't make any sense. I mean, this is basically the exact same argument as those opposed to a royalty review.

Cutting public sector salaries will make Alberta's economics WORSE, not better.

I'm not in favour of laying off public sector employees. But salary freezes, and in some cases roll-backs, are probably necessary. Compensation for most of those jobs in Alberta is excellent, and among the highest in North America. There's a lot of leeway before we'd see people stop going to teachers college or studying to be nurses.

We're batted this around before. I'm a proponent of strong public services. But I've long believed the biggest threat to the sustainability of public services in Canada is labour costs and pension liabilities that are storing up a fiscal crisis in the future that can only be addressed by catastrophic cuts or privatization.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Why do you want to harm the economy more by reducing the income of albertans that still have jobs? According to you, if Alberta had the same taxes as the next lowest jurisdiction in Canada there would be no deficit?

In a consumer economy in a recession the government shouldn't be putting their thumb on the scale to turn 150 000 job losses into 170 000.

That doesn't make any sense. I mean, this is basically the exact same argument as those opposed to a royalty review.

Cutting public sector salaries will make Alberta's economics WORSE, not better.

your right in a bubble, your wrong in the situation. If you look at the last budget released, the day to day operations of the government were running at a deficit. We're not talking about spending programs tipping up into deficit, we're talking about the business of government running a deficit.

At this point sitting there and saying, well we just need to raise more taxes to cover that is blind to the fact that we have one of the highest paid civil service sectors in this province. We are something like the second or third highest per capita spending on health care in this province with one of the worst deliveries in terms of wait time.

This points to a bloated inefficient civil service.

If you look at how it works, a public servant takes far more out monetarily then they put in taxes wise, so the prevailing logic is that you have to re-adjust that formula.

Yes its tragic that you have to add more to the unemployment roll, but the bottom line is that the alberta government can't afford to continue to do business in this manner, and the adding more drag to the economy with more taxes to cover it is silly.

Frankly the easiest way to do this without adding to the unemployment rolls is to negotiate wage cuts and freezes to bring Alberta Public service salaries back in line with the rest of the country. Cause the hardest way is to reduce the workforce substantially and look at a more efficient delivery model.

And no I'm not talking about lopping front line workers like nurses and teachers etc. But balancing the ratio of less bureaucrats and office workers and middle level managers and low level managers so that you can invest the savings into the front line while reducing the day to day deficit.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Why do you want to harm the economy more by reducing the income of albertans that still have jobs? According to you, if Alberta had the same taxes as the next lowest jurisdiction in Canada there would be no deficit?

In a consumer economy in a recession the government shouldn't be putting their thumb on the scale to turn 150 000 job losses into 170 000.

That doesn't make any sense. I mean, this is basically the exact same argument as those opposed to a royalty review.

Cutting public sector salaries will make Alberta's economics WORSE, not better.

So the economic adjustments facing this province should be made entirely by the private sector?

[Enoch Root]

I agree with deficit spending in a downturn (and surpluses in good times), but leaving the public sector as is, while the private sector is experiencing massive layoffs, is imbalanced and short-sited.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I agree with deficit spending in a downturn (and surpluses in good times), but leaving the public sector as is, while the private sector is experiencing massive layoffs, is imbalanced and short-sited.

I don't disagree, however when the deficit is in day to day keeping the government in business spending that's ludicris.

If your going to spend a deficit, at least have the money going towards stimulating the economy.

[Locke]

Hey, I can fix the deficit problem without laying off or rolling back the wages of a single teacher or nurse. I've got a sure-fire plan.

The funny part is that reading that sentence you're probably expecting a witty remark or off-the-cuff humurous answer, but I'm serious:

Public Service Pensions.

They're insane. They cannot continue as they are.

Budget after budget the Province pumps more and more money into the public sector and yet budget after budget nurses and teachers complain incessantly that they dont have enough funding.

And they're not wrong.

Most of that public funding goes to non-operating expenses. It goes into funding the world's greatest security blanket.

[Enoch Root]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't disagree, however when the deficit is in day to day keeping the government in business spending that's ludicris.

If your going to spend a deficit, at least have the money going towards stimulating the economy.

100% agree

[Dan02]

Originally Posted by Locke

Hey, I can fix the deficit problem without laying off or rolling back the wages of a single teacher or nurse. I've got a sure-fire plan.

The funny part is that reading that sentence you're probably expecting a witty remark or off-the-cuff humurous answer, but I'm serious:

Public Service Pensions.

They're insane. They cannot continue as they are.

Budget after budget the Province pumps more and more money into the public sector and yet budget after budget nurses and teachers complain incessantly that they dont have enough funding.

And they're not wrong.

Most of that public funding goes to non-operating expenses. It goes into funding the world's greatest security blanket.

That's a fight that's been a long time coming but no government is willing to fight it. Look at the states, in some areas the public sector pensions are literally bankrupting the local and state governments.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Dan02

That's a fight that's been a long time coming but no government is willing to fight it. Look at the states, in some areas the public sector pensions are literally bankrupting the local and state governments.

I know. I've been following it. It is the worst thing going right now, it is the single greatest drain on public resources that exists at this moment and when the time comes its going to fail and drag us all along with it. Its already happened a couple of times in the US.

Someone has to sack up and fix it. Immediately if not sooner.

The public service sector is important and valuable and I think in Canada it is fantastic, but those pensions have to go. Can you imagine what our Education and Health Care systems would be like if vast amounts of their funding didnt get sloshed into an egregiously under-funded pension system as opposed to being applied to front-line operating expenses? It would be amazing.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I'm not in favour of laying off public sector employees. But salary freezes, and in some cases roll-backs, are probably necessary. Compensation for most of those jobs in Alberta is excellent, and among the highest in North America. There's a lot of leeway before we'd see people stop going to teachers college or studying to be nurses.

We're batted this around before. I'm a proponent of strong public services. But I've long believed the biggest threat to the sustainability of public services in Canada is labour costs and pension liabilities that are storing up a fiscal crisis in the future that can only be addressed by catastrophic cuts or privatization.

Why? Public sector pensions were adequately funded until very recently. Just because you lower taxes to placate voters doesn't mean you're suddenly absolved from the responsibility to follow through on your good-faith negotiations and contracts. If provinces and municipalities didn't want this reality they shouldn't have cut taxes to the point these pensions were unaffordable.

The fact remains that the most burdensome aspects of our economy is NOT public sector pensions but private sector debt levels. Public sector employees are less of a drain on the provinces economic activity than those using social services. Eventually when the baby boomer generation starts to come home to roost here with their negligible savings and massive healthcare costs, we'll be thanking those pensioners who were able to save adequately for their retirement and continue to put their pension dollars back into the local economy.

It's voodoo economics to say when these pension obligations were signed they were affordable and now after selling off many of Alberta's public assets and reverting to an inefficient flat tax that they are suddenly unaffordable again.

Like basically every other single aspect of Alberta's economic woes, this is tied directly to policy initiatives.

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

I agree with deficit spending in a downturn (and surpluses in good times), but leaving the public sector as is, while the private sector is experiencing massive layoffs, is imbalanced and short-sited.

WHY!?

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. I find this to be incredibly stupid reasoning.

I mean, it's not like we haven't seen this play out before. It's taken 20 years for the province to recover from Klein's ill-advised healthcare cuts, and it's been far more costly to the province of Alberta than if they'd never happened at all.

Cut public spending now and watch Alberta try to crawl out of the hole for the next 20 years.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

Why? Public sector pensions were adequately funded until very recently. Just because you lower taxes to placate voters doesn't mean you're suddenly absolved from the responsibility to follow through on your good-faith negotiations and contracts. If provinces and municipalities didn't want this reality they shouldn't have cut taxes to the point these pensions were unaffordable.

The fact remains that the most burdensome aspects of our economy is NOT public sector pensions but private sector debt levels. Public sector employees are less of a drain on the provinces economic activity than those using social services. Eventually when the baby boomer generation starts to come home to roost here with their negligible savings and massive healthcare costs, we'll be thanking those pensioners who were able to save adequately for their retirement and continue to put their pension dollars back into the local economy.

It's voodoo economics to say when these pension obligations were signed they were affordable and now after selling off many of Alberta's public assets and reverting to an inefficient flat tax that they are suddenly unaffordable again.

Like basically every other single aspect of Alberta's economic woes, this is tied directly to policy initiatives.

WHY!?

An eye for an eye leaves the whole world blind. I find this to be incredibly stupid reasoning.

I mean, it's not like we haven't seen this play out before. It's taken 20 years for the province to recover from Klein's ill-advised healthcare cuts, and it's been far more costly to the province of Alberta than if they'd never happened at all.

Cut public spending now and watch Alberta try to crawl out of the hole for the next 20 years.

Wow. Its tough to call someone out-right 'wrong' in a discussion like this, but here I am having to say it.

Everything you just typed out is wrong.

Klein 'cut healthcare spending' because of those ill-advised 'in good faith' pension negotiations.

You're not lowering taxes to take away from public spending. It wasnt like public sector employees were being laid off left, right and centre while the remaining few survivors were taking pay cuts and hunkering down for Armageddon.

The fact remains that the most burdensome aspects of our economy is NOT public sector pensions but private sector debt levels. Public sector employees are less of a drain on the provinces economic activity than those using social services. Eventually when the baby boomer generation starts to come home to roost here with their negligible savings and massive healthcare costs, we'll be thanking those pensioners who were able to save adequately for their retirement and continue to put their pension dollars back into the local economy.

This is just. Wrong. Its just wrong.

Private sector debt levels? What does that mean? Leveraged companies are the problem? What problem is that?

Public sector employees and their insane pensions that are bankrupting cities and states are less of a problem than...people on Ei and welfare? Are you kidding?

Well, for one thing EI and walfare are federal programs whereas public service employees are provincial, but lets not let facts get in the way of things.

Do you realize that you've effectively stated that the 'old and the unemployed' are the problem?

And even if the old, retiring unhealthy people had great savings and loads of money what does that change?