One thing Bettman said on the radio yesterday that made a little bit of sense. No one would deny that it's a bad time in Calgary economy wise, which is where the majority of the disapproval comes from. And that's fine, it makes sense on the surface. But are we as bad off as Detroit? I would think most would say no. Yet, Detroit approved a 650 million dollar project in 2014 that was tied to the Joe Louis Arena.
Now, I'm not arguing this on the case of having to keep up with the Jones'. Not at all. Just because something is good for one city, doesn't mean it'll be good for the other. Or even that the first city made the right choice to begin with. But I think it shows it's not only possible, but it could be a good thing. Costs generally go down in economic slowdown, and stimulus can help an economy in slowdown. I guess it's not entirely stimulus, as most of it will be coming from taxes, but the owners are pitching in some money (which is more than you can say about most arena projects) and projects do provide jobs. Yes, they will be short term jobs, but jobs anyway for a few years.
Again, this is not to say I endorse the project. I still don't know. But there are many angles to look at. Simply saying, now is a bad time is reductive, and may not be true. It may actually be a better time.
One thing Bettman said on the radio yesterday that made a little bit of sense. No one would deny that it's a bad time in Calgary economy wise, which is where the majority of the disapproval comes from. And that's fine, it makes sense on the surface. But are we as bad off as Detroit? I would think most would say no. Yet, Detroit approved a 650 million dollar project in 2014 that was tied to the Joe Louis Arena.
Now, I'm not arguing this on the case of having to keep up with the Jones'. Not at all. Just because something is good for one city, doesn't mean it'll be good for the other. Or even that the first city made the right choice to begin with. But I think it shows it's not only possible, but it could be a good thing. Costs generally go down in economic slowdown, and stimulus can help an economy in slowdown. I guess it's not entirely stimulus, as most of it will be coming from taxes, but the owners are pitching in some money (which is more than you can say about most arena projects) and projects do provide jobs. Yes, they will be short term jobs, but jobs anyway for a few years.
Again, this is not to say I endorse the project. I still don't know. But there are many angles to look at. Simply saying, now is a bad time is reductive, and may not be true. It may actually be a better time.
But that's not really where the majority of the disapproval comes from. That's just another aspect that makes the timing of the request awful. The majority of the disapproval is because it's been shown again and again that the municipalities are the losers when it comes to funding sports stadiums.
I'm not, I'm simply saying they feel like it was a good choice for them. I don't know who pushed it through, or who it benefits. If it went to public vote or what. All I'm saying is there's different things to consider here and using them as an example. Reductive thought is just that. Reductive. A lot of the arguments from the con side have zero substance or thought. Just the same old tired cliches. There are some good arguments on the con side. I'm just giving those who are not looking at all the angles something to consider.
And yes, obviously we don't know how it all worked out yet.
But that's not really where the majority of the disapproval comes from. That's just another aspect that makes the timing of the request awful. The majority of the disapproval is because it's been shown again and again that the municipalities are the losers when it comes to funding sports stadiums.
I don't disagree that the model is unfair, and ultimately low benefit for high money for the taxpayers. But there is no other alternative. If it comes down to this and this only, what you really should be asking yourself is if you want the Flames or not.
There is no arena in NA that isn't paid for with a majority of public funds. And this one is actually a lower ratio of public funds than most. So that's something.
Thanks tips. Detroit went bankrupt BEFORE this happened. (lol) That's my point. It was looked at (rightly or wrongly) as a rejuvenation sort of project. Again, we will see how it turns out.
A lot of the arguments from the con side have zero substance or thought. Just the same old tired cliches.
I haven't really seen any/many "NO PUBLIC MONEY RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE" posts, but maybe I'm wrong?
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Originally Posted by Daradon
If it comes down to this and this only, what you really should be asking yourself is if you want the Flames or not.
I think the relocation threat has zero substance. And even if it did, it would bother me one bit, even as a passionate Flames fan I'd tell them to watch the door on the way out. So obviously a big issue is that people on different sides of the argument aren't on the same plane at all.
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Thanks tips. Detroit went bankrupt BEFORE this happened. (lol) That's my point. It was looked at (rightly or wrongly) as a rejuvenation sort of project. Again, we will see how it turns out.
my point was we shouldn't be taking queues from major cities that file chapter 9s
No, you aren't telling people almost everyday (sic) who the Flames are.
actually I am. I work for a company in the NE with over 800 employees. Many/most are East Indian, Syrians, Iraqis, Somalians, Kenyans etc. Many of these people are not recent immigrants either (although many are new within the past year) Many have been here 3-5 years or longer and have absolutely no clue who the Flames are. I wear Flames gear quite often at work. Hats, Tshirts, hoodie and occasionally one of my Flames Jerseys and I will get asked "what this logo means?" Or "how come I see you always wearing this sign? What is that sign for?" Etc etc. I deal with a Ton of truck drivers everyday as well. Truck drivers that aren't part of our company and i have never met before. just picking up loads or dropping offf etc. Many times I wait with them 15-30+ minutes and engage in small talk. If a game is on I'll mention the score, or I'll say "The Flames are playing tonight. Do u cheer for the Flames?" Many, many many have no idea.
Just because in your small little bubble of people you see everyday, that are probably for the most part born in Canada, all know who the Flames are, don't assume this is wide spread knowledge with Calgarys HUGE multicultural population, because it's not.
I don't disagree that the model is unfair, and ultimately low benefit for high money for the taxpayers. But there is no other alternative. If it comes down to this and this only, what you really should be asking yourself is if you want the Flames or not.
There is no arena in NA that isn't paid for with a majority of public funds. And this one is actually a lower ratio of public funds than most. So that's something.
LOL! Drinking the Koolaid.
I friggin' dare the league to move the Flames out of Calgary in a Salary capped league.
One of the most stable ownership groups in the league in a prime Western Canadian city, one of the most profitable teams in the league with i believe a top 5 dollar dollar-per-fan ratio in the league.
It's not 1996 any more. The Flames have one of the richest ownership groups in the league and the league has an ownership designed cap system in place. Their costs are fixed, the team is wildly profitable especially compared to some of the other markets in the league and the league is already dealing with franchises under the process of being sold and potentially relocated. The team is doing so well they've bought into other leagues.
The Saddledome isn't crumbling, fans are still pouring money into the organization and the league just got a big fat TV contract.
It's a wonderful time to be an owner in a hockey market. Where else are they going to go? Seattle? Don't make me laugh.
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Thanks tips. Detroit went bankrupt BEFORE this happened. (lol) That's my point. It was looked at (rightly or wrongly) as a rejuvenation sort of project. Again, we will see how it turns out.
Well, since Detroit did it...
Would you prefer the school in your neighbourhood shut down first, or the firehouse?
Anyway, anyone interested in this subject should check out "Field Of Schemes".
We are getting the full-court press already... manufactured urgency, floated threats of relocation, comparisons to the dreaded rival...
Luckily most Calgarians, and our politicians, don't seem to be falling for it.
Also, Bettman came across as just a petulant, whining ####### on CBC this morning. "Stop interrupting me, let me finish wah wah wah...".
While he's grooming that new beard of his, he should really brush up on the audience he's playing too. Acting like a guest on one of those screaming "news" panels doesn't really fly in Canada.
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Yeah, if anyone actually thinks the Flames are leaving then I'm afraid you're likely gravely mistaken. Even if they did, we'd have another team here quickly with a hard lesson of what businesses really think of loyalty.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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From the Rick Bell article, among other tidbits lie the Mayor's Chief of Staff and Ciry Manager meeting with Bettman this morning...
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The commish might not have fully understood “the enormous amount of work and money the city is spending to analyze the one-page letter we received from the Calgary Flames.”
I understand this is no joke. The "proposal" the City has is literally a letter and the information the web page has.
The city should really be sending a bill, but in the end, doing the study should be considered a significant portion of the city's portion of getting the project done.
Article by Eric D on this - he was in the scrum with Nenshi today
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“Here is the most important part of all this – and what I was getting at a little snarkily yesterday,” said Nenshi. “In other cities, these sorts of deals are presented to the public as a fait accompli, with a gift-wrapped ribbon on them. That is not how we have chosen to operate. That’s not how council, in public, unanimously decided to move forward. The idea here is, we’re going to let the public in.
“There’s going to be no question about where the funding is coming from. There’s not going to be any mystery about that. And we’ll really look hard to get public input on all this.”
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“The first step is determining whether the site the Flames picked – not the city, but the Flames – even works at all. We have to know what the level of the environmental contamination is. We have to figure out how much it would cost to fix that. If we’re using a community revitalization tool, we have to figure out if there’s even money in the [community revitalization levy] to clean up the pollution, let alone to have a surplus in order to invest in anything.”
All it takes is a few words from Bettman early in this process and Nenshi is already making himself look poor with his comments to Bettman and then getting into the childish squabble with Francis. How is he going to keep it together when things reach a more critical juncture? Bettman is a master troll, he's been trolling the PA, media and cities on behalf of the NHL for a long time; he was doing more than feeling Nenshi out and the mayor made himself look like a dick. Bettman will have a field day with Nenshi later in the process.
All it takes is a few words from Bettman early in this process and Nenshi is already making himself look poor with his comments to Bettman and then getting into the childish squabble with Francis. How is he going to keep it together when things reach a more critical juncture? Bettman is a master troll, he's been trolling the PA, media and cities on behalf of the NHL for a long time; he was doing more than feeling Nenshi out and the mayor made himself look like a dick. Bettman will have a field day with Nenshi later in the process.
I think Nenshi is making himself look good here, and I think that Bettman is going to have trouble with Nenshi. What Nenshi realizes is that Bettman is the least important player in all of this.What does the NHL contribute here? Nothing. What authority do they have? None. They are not even a stakeholder. No body is worried about Bettman other than Bettman.
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