[News] Bettman urges new arena ASAP

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

I wish both sides would stop fighitng the public battle - and just figure out a mutually beneficial solution.

I wish people would stop mischaracterizing this as a both sides issue.

The city of Calgary is not interested in building the Calgary Flames a new hockey arena or a fieldhouse.

The Flames are asking the city for assistance, not the other way around, and had they been genuine about it, they wouldn't have sent letters about financing after the fact, they would have engaged with the city directly at any point in the preceding 10 years to figure out the timing and orchestration for such a large project.

The city has already allocated their infrastructure dollars for the next 3 years. Did the Calgary Flames REALLY think they could submit some drawings and hold some presentations and un-do the whole civic infrastructure plan just because they are the Flames?

The arrogance is dripping wet, and Nenshi is completely within the realms of decency and professionalism to call them out on their absurd strategy to manipulate the public into believing that the city either wants this project to go ahead ("The money for a field house is already budgeted" - Abject lie) or that they are the major obstacle towards it being completed.

Absolutely laughable that the only thing so far that has any traction in the whole plan is the city paying for and conducting it's own review of the site without even a plan submitted yet by the Flames.

This idea that Nenshi should be anything other than skeptical of any and all private interest proposals with public dollars is alarming.

[northcrunk]

Nenshi won't meet with anyone who disagrees with him. He still refuses to meet with the people from the midfield trailer park city council is closing. He is just like Lyndsay Lohan's character in mean girls. Smart girl, gets popular, turns mean. Hopefully he will have his coming back to earth moment sooner than later.

[Looch City]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

Nenshi won't meet with anyone who disagrees with him. He still refuses to meet with the people from the midfield trailer park city council is closing. He is just like Lyndsay Lohan's character in mean girls. Smart girl, gets popular, turns mean. Hopefully he will have his coming back to earth moment sooner than later.

This post has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by Iggy City

This post has nothing to do with the topic at hand.

Nice to meet you Pot. My name is Kettle.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

I'm not sure what you find offensive or threatening in that letter. At worst it's fluff.

And he specifically asks for a more formal discussion or process. It's not like he says "that's all there is - approve it".

I don't find it offensive.

I find it offensive that people are writing off Nenshi for not allowing a proper consultation of the proposal when they haven't received a proposal.

The letter is the only thing the City has received. It's a classic form letter. No proposal has been issued, so what is there to discuss?

The point of the letter is to show how early the process is. So if Nenshi doesn't feel the need to meet with Bettman at this moment, then there is no need to call him a petulant child.

My remark about "gettin' on board" is in reference to Bettman telling us the City needs to get on board. Everyone knows this is a public consultation. We know there are assessments going on in the WV as we speak. Bettman is an idiot and has no idea of the process that has went on in Calgary. Nenshi was right saying we aren't just going to sign over 450 million for a "half-baked" plan and no public consultation.

[MRCboicgy]

Stop it.

Keep it on topic.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by JiriHrdina

They aren't asking for funding in the letter. They are asking for a conversation and trying to figure out who they need to have that with.

Fair enough. I'm pretty jaded about how they've gone about this whole thing. And that's from someone who is on board with the concept overall. Just a bush league means of implementation so far.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Maybe in the formal process he's asking for? Municipal planning always goes from concept to the municipality saying what data and studies they need, then a back and forth between the applicant and the planning department. You don't make the approach with a full study etc. That's a huge waste of money.

Again, the issue. There is no applicant. There is no application. There is a letter. There was a public presentation. There was Gary Bettman saying "I would love to meet with the mayor about the proposal". There was Nenshi saying "if nothing has changed, then its a waste of time."

Done. End of story. Next topic.

[kmart]

In that interview Nenshi seems very annoyed with the comments that Bettman has made. I would prefer it also if our mayor wouldn't call the proposal a "back of a napkin" proposal and conduct more professional interviews. His comment on New Yorker's telling Calgarians about vibrance is very unnecessary jab at Bettman. Nenshi could've handled it much better.

I can see that it was an awful proposal, but it doesn't seem like Nenshi or any of the Councilors have any intention with discussions with the Calgary Flames, to them its zero money at all.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Tinordi

I don't care about a "mutually beneficial solution" if I'm a taxpayer. I care about Nenshi as my elected representative actually representing my interests and not paying for something that they can pay for themselves.

The solution is for the Flames to finance their arena like how they did in Vancouver, Montreal, Toronto. To pay for it themselves. That's the solution. There is no negotiating or bargaining around that basic hard truth.

Has it ever occurred to you that some Calgarians are not against city funding for this project? I'm a Calgarian and a taxpayer and I am fine with the city working with the Flames ownership to get this done. I see a lot of posters here that seem to feel they are the voice of all Calgarians. Not everyone has Nenshi syndrome. BTW are you even a taxpayer?

[stone hands]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Has it ever occurred to you that some Calgarians are not against city funding for this project? I see a lot of posters here that seem to feel they are the voice of all Calgarians. Not everyone has Nenshi syndrome.

I'd be curious to see an official poll by the city

Most people i know and interact with are very against calgaryNEXT

gary bettman and ken king say the majority of calgarians are all for it

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by stone hands

I'd be curious to see an official poll by the city

Most people i know and interact with are very against calgaryNEXT

gary bettman and ken king say the majority of calgarians are all for it

I know people that are for and against it.

[heep223]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think the most surprising thing I've learned out of all this is that people honestly believe the Stamps' biggest problem in terms of drawing people is their stadium, and not the CFL product as a whole. As someone who considers himself an NFL fan, but will still go to CFL games if there's one on when he's in Calgary if one doesn't conflict with my schedule, I can tell you that the rules of the game, the officiating, talent level, and the fact that over 50% of the teams make the playoffs are far bigger factors.

I'd go to way more games if I didn't have to sit on a metal bench in -25 degree weather, barely see the play or the jumbotron and eat a $6 soggy wrinkled hot dog.

[CaptainYooh]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Again, the issue. There is no applicant. There is no application. There is a letter. There was a public presentation. There was Gary Bettman saying "I would love to meet with the mayor about the proposal". There was Nenshi saying "if nothing has changed, then its a waste of time."

Done. End of story. Next topic.

No, this would be huge over-simplification of how these things get done. You don't put forward a detail application on something like this without some significant preliminary agreements and concessions. The costs of doing an actual application for this project would be in millions. Why spend them if there is no consensus on principles? CSEC decided to take a chance and see the public/government reaction to their idea. Yes, bad idea. Yes, not well-thought. Yes, on the wrong site. These are all of the things that are going to be vetted and phased out pretty quickly. But, this should also have been a catalyst for the initiation of a constructive dialogue. And Nenshi very rudely said, "not interested unless you have something new to say". I'd say, a very bad and near-sighted call. He should be interested. Flames franchise is worth hundreds of millions of $US dollars. If sold and moved to a US buyer, the owners stand to take huge profits (at the time when all of them are bleeding losses in their O&G businesses). While Calgary hockey community and general community both stand to lose big time from the loss of the franchise, if that's in fact is the risk. So, there are mutual benefits to solving this collectively and cooperatively.

Anyone thinking or saying that this should be 100% paid for by CSEC are living in some weird world of reality denial or posturing. All NHL franchises in North America are in one way or another supported by public financing through taxation relief, special guaranteed usage rights, subsidized leases, sponsored loans and direct cash investments. How much of each and what specifically this financing could include should be the real question on the table and it is for CSET and City Council to negotiate.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by heep223

I'd go to way more games if I didn't have to sit on a metal bench in -25 degree weather, barely see the play or the jumbotron and eat a $6 soggy wrinkled hot dog.

Yep. That indoor stadium will be huge in the fall and playoffs when attendance typically declines due to the fairweather fans staying home. I'll admit that I watched both Stamps playoff games on my couch because in my experience going to games where it's freezing I spend more time focussing on staying warm and watching the clock than enjoying the game. If the games were indoors I would have gone to both and I think the Stamps could annually sell out their playoff games whereas now they are lucky to get about 29k if it's not cold.

[Vinny01]

Maybe I am out to lunch here but if the city isn't going to pay for half the project perhaps ownership should look at doing only half the project? How much is the Edmonton arena like $480M? According to King ownership is promising $450M towards CalgaryNEXT. In my opinion the most pressing need is a new events centre. The Flames, Hitmen, Rpughnecks all play there and several concerts occur every year. A new building finds homes for those 3 teams and likely adds several big concerts that can't happen at the Dome because of the roof configuration.

The Field House is a needed project at some point but does it have to be coupled with the Events Centre? This will be a year round multi purpose facility but currently it is not funded. The Stamps could definitely use a new home but at the end of the day it is 9 CFL games a year. I have stated several times in this thread I don't mind McMahon on a summer day. CFL football is not the NHL where I would rather wait for intermission to go to the bathroom or grab a beer. I never find it hard to get beer, food, or use the restroom at McMahon. If this project was bringing a NFL or even MLS team to Calgary that is a different story. It is a home for the Stamps and an amateur multi spot complex. It would be great to have but not as great as an events centre.

Easier said than done by ownership could cough up another $50M and split the cost with the customer and build a new $500M events centre in the land just north of the Dome. The Dome is torn down once completed and the Flames, Roughnecks, Hitmen have a new home

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by heep223

I'd go to way more games if I didn't have to sit on a metal bench in -25 degree weather, barely see the play or the jumbotron and eat a $6 soggy wrinkled hot dog.

I would go to way less games as I have no interest in watching a CFL game in the middle of summer indoors. A 2 or 5pm kickoff on a Saturday in the middle of July sitting in the sun drinking beer and watching football is a good time. Sitting in a closed roof stadium loses a ton of the experience for me personally.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

No, this would be huge over-simplification of how these things get done. You don't put forward a detail application on something like this without some significant preliminary agreements and concessions. The costs of doing an actual application for this project would be in millions. Why spend them if there is no consensus on principles? CSEC decided to take a chance and see the public/government reaction to their idea. Yes, bad idea. Yes, not well-thought. Yes, on the wrong site. These are all of the things that are going to be vetted and phased out pretty quickly. But, this should also have been a catalyst for the initiation of a constructive dialogue. And Nenshi very rudely said, "not interested unless you have something new to say". I'd say, a very bad and near-sighted call. He should be interested. Flames franchise is worth hundreds of millions of $US dollars. If sold and moved to a US buyer, the owners stand to take huge profits (at the time when all of them are bleeding losses in their O&G businesses). While Calgary hockey community and general community both stand to lose big time from the loss of the franchise, if that's in fact is the risk. So, there are mutual benefits to solving this collectively and cooperatively.

Anyone thinking or saying that this should be 100% paid for by CSEC are living in some weird world of reality denial or posturing. All NHL franchises in North America are in one way or another supported by public financing through taxation relief, special guaranteed usage rights, subsidized leases, sponsored loans and direct cash investments. How much of each and what specifically this financing could include should be the real question on the table and it is for CSET and City Council to negotiate.

I would compare the City's response to this as a Vendor selling a home and the potential buyer just sent in a low-ball offer. You don't counter, you just wait until they get the hint and send a better offer; if not, don't waste my time.

No one here is truly expecting that no benefits will be awarded to the team with respect to the new arena. But most are unwilling to put up money for the construction cost. Some are willing to have land supplied, some are willing to have subsidized leases or property tax breaks. Those are within the realm of possibility; but we aren't even close to that type of argument yet.

Many in Council have said as much, but until the Flames come up with a better financing structure, they can effectively pound sand.

Not to mention the issues with the site and building, etc. that have been discussed at length here and where many other continue to hold staunch opposition to the proposal. If they want to build a stupid mega-complex, then have at it, but they should pay for it. Until the city can have input on the design, location, etc. then why should they be expected to consult?

Also, if we think the city should give money to the Flames because "this is how it has always been done" then you are part of the problem with North American professional sports

[dammage79]

Broken down, what's the cost per tax payer if the government went ahead with this plan as proposed? Off the top of my head I'm guessing a little over $900 per person yeah? Spread out over how many years?

[cam_wmh]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

Has it ever occurred to you that some Calgarians are not against city funding for this project? I'm a Calgarian and a taxpayer and I am fine with the city working with the Flames ownership to get this done. I see a lot of posters here that seem to feel they are the voice of all Calgarians. Not everyone has Nenshi syndrome. BTW are you even a taxpayer?

Take it easy on the hyperbole.

Nenshi is a liberal. Objecting to public funds to "sustain-- SORRY, gift" to Private Business, is fiscal conservatism.

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I know people that are for and against it.

The majority on this Flames friendly forum, object to CalgaryNEXT as it's proposed today. I'd imagine the regular fare going public, will object to it in even higher numbers.

Originally Posted by CaptainYooh

All NHL franchises in North America are in one way or another supported by public financing through taxation relief, special guaranteed usage rights, subsidized leases, sponsored loans and direct cash investments.

How were Vancouver, Toronto & Montreal accommodated in this regard?

Can someone objectively answer, why the City should be offering public monies to CS&E?

I already stated, they'd be absolute fools to move.