[News] Bettman urges new arena ASAP

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by DJones

NFL is looking to expand to London and Toronto. San Diego is going to regret losing their team if it happens.

Quebec, Hamilton, Seattle are all options assuming Vegas is already confirmed. There will always be somewhere to move. GTA doesn't seem to crazy an idea to me, especially if it was beneficially to the league to have that extra leverage.

A lack of an arena won't hurt the value of the Flames brand. That's not going with the team when they get sold.

There is always leverage.

London is a pipe dream, and beyond that the two teams to move there have already been identified and they have horrible fan bases who don't go to games in Jacksonville and Tampa Bay. So no loss at all. Toronto is only happening if Bon Jovi gets ownership of a team and moves them, and since the NFL can block any relocation...it's never happening.

QC is out, they're getting an expansion team so that's gone. Hamilton will forever be blocked by the Leafs and Sabers, or the team that moves there is going to be forking over a massive amount of money to placate the Leafs/Sabers. Seattle? Sure, assuming one of the other handful of teams shedding money doesn't get there first. And that's my other point: This isn't the NFL where every team is profitable off the TV deal, the NHL has several franchises who are doing very poorly financially. Moving from one of your best markets? I actually think the NHL would block any move from Calgary, but there are other teams that can be bought and moved for much less than Calgary.

The Flames have nothing. Their leverage alternatives are all worse options than staying in Calgary. As I already said if they wanna cut of their nose to spite their face, best of luck losing money somewhere else. At least they'll have a nice shinny new arena to do it in though.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Cappy

That is the grossest arena deal for any taxpayer I have ever seen. There is no way in H E double hockey sticks I would ever consider that a wind.

The City of Indianapolis could have revitalized downtown in several different ways with the 800 million they spent!

It's basically what the Flames proposed, just all in one shot.

This is how the Indy deal breaks down.

3% Marion County hotel tax increase
Indianapolis Colts 2% County car rental tax increase
1% County restaurant tax increase
1% County admissions tax increase
1% increases in restaurant taxes in 6 other surrounding counties
Sales of Colts license plates

Is that unreasonable to revitalize an entire downtown?

Another deal to look at is Minnesota's new stadium costing 1.1 billion which is around 55 Vikings/45 Taxpayers and Tourism for reference.
http://www.vikings.com/stadium/new-stadium/faq.html

edit: an older example is the Shark Tank in the 90s. Cost 160 million, 130 from the city and 30 from the team.
Before the San Jose Sharks came to town, downtown San Jose was a ghost town in the evening. But, the arena became the anchor and hub that regularly drew in thousands of people for games and concerts, drawing in lots of new restaurants, bars and other development downtown. I think this was one case where the use of public money for an arena led to significant public benefit.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

They aren't asking that much, but I wouldn't be surprised if it ends up costing the city that. The cleanup will go over budget. Then there are road realignments, utility work etc. The Crowchild mess is going to be brought into it...Now some of that is work that is going to need to be done anyway, but it makes this whole area a money priority vacuum for the next decade. Which means there won't be money for other needs (and wants).

Other needs and wants like what? Crowchild should be one of the most pressing infrastructure issues in the city. The creosote cleanup has been footdragged for waaay too long. Combining that cleanup with the construction of this facility can only reduce the cost vs doing both separately.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

London is a pipe dream, and beyond that the two teams to move there have already been identified and they have horrible fan bases who don't go to games in Jacksonville and Tampa Bay. So no loss at all. Toronto is only happening if Bon Jovi gets ownership of a team and moves them, and since the NFL can block any relocation...it's never happening.

QC is out, they're getting an expansion team so that's gone. Hamilton will forever be blocked by the Leafs and Sabers, or the team that moves there is going to be forking over a massive amount of money to placate the Leafs/Sabers. Seattle? Sure, assuming one of the other handful of teams shedding money doesn't get there first. And that's my other point: This isn't the NFL where every team is profitable off the TV deal, the NHL has several franchises who are doing very poorly financially. Moving from one of your best markets? I actually think the NHL would block any move from Calgary, but there are other teams that can be bought and moved for much less than Calgary.

The Flames have nothing. Their leverage alternatives are all worse options than staying in Calgary. As I already said if they wanna cut of their nose to spite their face, best of luck losing money somewhere else. At least they'll have a nice shinny new arena to do it in though.

Off topic but why on earth would the NFL want to block a team from going to Toronto? That would be massive for them.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by DJones

Off topic but why on earth would the NFL want to block a team from going to Toronto? That would be massive for them.

Because the NFL generates a lot of money from the TV rights. nobody in the states want to watch a team from Toronto.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by MattyC

Other needs and wants like what? Crowchild should be one of the most pressing infrastructure issues in the city. The creosote cleanup has been footdragged for waaay too long. Combining that cleanup with the construction of this facility can only reduce the cost vs doing both separately.

I'm sure the city has a list $20 billion long on needs and wants. I'd rather it be prioritized then forced. Anyway, all I'm saying is they may not be asking for $1 billion, but it is going to cost that.

[DJones]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

Because the NFL generates a lot of money from the TV rights. nobody in the states want to watch a team from Toronto.

Do a quick google search, people love the idea of NFL in Toronto. It's the Bills that hate the idea.

[Huntingwhale]

Originally Posted by northcrunk

I would probably actually go to a CFL game if it was in a dome. I can't stand sitting on a hard, cold plastic seat only to leave the game with hemroids.

Why would you wipe your anus on the seat?

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by DJones

Off topic but why on earth would the NFL want to block a team from going to Toronto? That would be massive for them.

Toronto does not factor into the US TV deal. So exchanging a US team for a Canadian team is costly. Plus the NFL isn't expanding and there is no logical team to move there now. The Bills made perfect sense, thankfully Pagula stepped in and kept them in Buffalo. Toronto was mostly driven by Bon Jovi, not the NFL. Unless we see NFL expansion, Toronto is never happening.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It's basically what the Flames proposed, just all in one shot.

This is how the Indy deal breaks down.



Is that unreasonable to revitalize an entire downtown?

Another deal to look at is Minnesota's new stadium costing 1.1 billion which is around 55 Vikings/45 Taxpayers and Tourism for reference.
http://www.vikings.com/stadium/new-stadium/faq.html

edit: an older example is the Shark Tank in the 90s. Cost 160 million, 130 from the city and 30 from the team.
Before the San Jose Sharks came to town, downtown San Jose was a ghost town in the evening. But, the arena became the anchor and hub that regularly drew in thousands of people for games and concerts, drawing in lots of new restaurants, bars and other development downtown. I think this was one case where the use of public money for an arena led to significant public benefit.

Exactly, and I think CalgaryNEXT is one of the grossest proposals I have seen.

Im saying there is an opportunity cost to spending. Indiana could have revitalized the downtown in several different ways than simply building a private stadium for the Colts.

The Sharks scenario is interesting because it lends credence to the idea that revitalization is led by the people and spending power in the city, not on the construction of a fancy new rink. I wonder what has happened in San Jose since early 90's???

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Exactly, and I think CalgaryNEXT is one of the grossest proposals I have seen.

Im saying there is an opportunity cost to spending. Indiana could have revitalized the downtown in several different ways than simply building a private stadium for the Colts.

The Sharks scenario is interesting because it lends credence to the idea that revitalization is led by the people and spending power in the city, not on the construction of a fancy new rink. I wonder what has happened in San Jose since early 90's???

hmmm from what I've read Indianapolis has really has become a sports town, despite lack of an MLB or NHL team here and far beyond the Colts and Pacers. The drawing of the NCAA Final Four, a few great minor league teams, a world class tennis center--all of these have made the city both a destination and vibrant again. You and I may question the 1:? ratio of taxpayer money in to taxpayer benefit out, but I think in a city like that it is pretty clear Indianapolis would be a much different city without the Fieldhouse, LOS, Victory Field, and the Fairgrounds Coliseum.

I do agree with you that the Indy proposal is too much. 86% city paid for LOS. This is where the CalgaryNEXT project starts and as you say it's gross. So it can only get better than Indianapolis. KK has to bring something else to the table.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by New Era

BLAH BLAH BLAH

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

haha when did Bettman become a billionaire? I guess Nenshi must have checked the guys tax returns before he fired off that tweet. Is there anything more patronizing than dismissing someone off-hand because they're rich and from NYC?

I may be mistaken, but I don't think Nenshi ever made any reference to billionaire - that was someone on the board. A scary example of how ridiculous unsubstantiated comments get turned into 'facts' in some people's minds.

Originally Posted by GirlySports

This is a pretty good starting proposal but the part I bolded would be the key negotiation. The city would want to manage the facilities, especially for things other than Stampeders. For example if there was an international event like the Commonweath Games or World Track and Field or World Cup, the city doesn't want to have to negotiate through the Flames in order to rent out the facility.

The city has already demonstrated that it doesn't want to be (nor should be IMO) responsible for managing the event side of a huge complex. You, and a few other posters are making it sound like a privately operated facility wouldn't be interested in hosting major events at their facility... Is it really worth the city taking on all of the risk and operating costs associated with managing a facility like this so they can save a few bucks every ten years when they want a massive international event?

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I know you weren't directing this at me but I have distaste for pretty much everyone in this situation. My power rankings would be:

Ken King

Nenshi
Bettman


Flames Ownership


Ken King has been horrible but Nenshi needs to get called out for the way he's been carrying himself.

So two agents working on behalf of and at the direction of Flames ownership earn your disdain, but not ownership itself? Exactly as they hoped!

As for the Nenshi bashers, it would obviously be better if he were more like Harper in terms of how the public can have access to and receive information from him. Obviously I jest, and of course an approach down the middle might be more advisable in some situations, but I'll take his transparent, front door approach with occasional unprofessionalism over a totally hidden, back door approach with occasional unprofessionalism any day of the week.

Originally Posted by DJones

A lack of an arena won't hurt the value of the Flames brand. That's not going with the team when they get sold.

There is always leverage.

I don't understand what you are trying to say...

I think there is absolutely zero threat of the team moving, and I fully encourage them to go if the threat comes. The only people that would be swayed by the threat would be too clouded by emotional attachment to the team to see the forest for the trees IMO.

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

The CRL will be needed regardless of who develops the area, just like it was for the East Village.

The field house needs to be funded regardless of it's inclusion in this project or not.

Creosote cleanup needs to happen even if the site is never developed.

Bow Trail realignment also needs to happen if that area is ever going to be utilized to it's full potential.

The Ticket Tax money is a loan, that the city can charge interest on.

So basically all of your 1B is getting spent regardless of CalgaryNEXT happening or not happening.

Exactly this.

The funding part is actually easy, even if takes a lot of work to get there. The city is going to spend their money either way.

And they and the province already happily spend billions on stuff like this over time. There is no philosophical bridge here that hasn't long since been crossed.

[northcrunk]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

Why would you wipe your anus on the seat?

Hey hey now. Only if the next game is sask. Pretty good chance there will be a watermelon head in that seat next game.

[jammies]

Originally Posted by cam_wmh

You need to post more about your disdain for bike-lane.

I eagerly await the next instalment of this riveting story. Will bike lanes be compared to death camps, or merely internment camps?

[DiracSpike]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

So two agents working on behalf of and at the direction of Flames ownership earn your disdain, but not ownership itself? Exactly as they hoped!

Well yeah, Ken King's only job now is to come up with an arena deal that works, and what he gave us was hot flaming garbage. So I do have more disdain for him than the ownership group that contributes a lot to the fabric of our city and is one of the main reasons we have a hockey team. Good thing you're clear-eyed enough to see through their dastardly deception though, I mean they are rich so that must mean they're bad people.

[monkeyman]

Originally Posted by DJones

Do a quick google search, people love the idea of NFL in Toronto. It's the Bills that hate the idea.

are you being serious?

[DJones]

Originally Posted by monkeyman

are you being serious?

What? I just did and like 10 articles endorsing the idea came up. Some logistical problems but no one seemed against it.

[Manhattanboy]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

It's basically what the Flames proposed, just all in one shot.

This is how the Indy deal breaks down.



Is that unreasonable to revitalize an entire downtown?

Another deal to look at is Minnesota's new stadium costing 1.1 billion which is around 55 Vikings/45 Taxpayers and Tourism for reference.
http://www.vikings.com/stadium/new-stadium/faq.html

edit: an older example is the Shark Tank in the 90s. Cost 160 million, 130 from the city and 30 from the team.
Before the San Jose Sharks came to town, downtown San Jose was a ghost town in the evening. But, the arena became the anchor and hub that regularly drew in thousands of people for games and concerts, drawing in lots of new restaurants, bars and other development downtown. I think this was one case where the use of public money for an arena led to significant public benefit.

Case on point. So I have no credibility hey?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

hmmm from what I've read Indianapolis has really has become a sports town, despite lack of an MLB or NHL team here and far beyond the Colts and Pacers. The drawing of the NCAA Final Four, a few great minor league teams, a world class tennis center--all of these have made the city both a destination and vibrant again. You and I may question the 1:? ratio of taxpayer money in to taxpayer benefit out, but I think in a city like that it is pretty clear Indianapolis would be a much different city without the Fieldhouse, LOS, Victory Field, and the Fairgrounds Coliseum.

I do agree with you that the Indy proposal is too much. 86% city paid for LOS. This is where the CalgaryNEXT project starts and as you say it's gross. So it can only get better than Indianapolis. KK has to bring something else to the table.

And that is great that Indianapolis has attracted many great sporting activities. I am sure the draw has contributed some uptick in tourism and spending (even though some draws have cost money to the venue itself: http://www.ibj.com/articles/31969-ci...ing-super-bowl)

But, lets not forget that Indianapolis is one of the many cities in the US struggling to run a positive operating budget.

Despite the fieldhouse, the City still pays the Pacers to play there: http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dl...ORTS04/7120329

And despite the sports image you project, the state is still loaning money to the venue owners because their operating budget runs deficits forcing budget cuts to police and arts:
http://www.indystar.com/article/2009.../1088/SPORTS04
http://www.theindychannel.com/money/...sn-t-reached#-


And don't forget all the hidden costs that are not included in your cost analysis: http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articl...d-s-long-finds

Don't get me wrong, I am not disagreeing with you that Indianapolis has in some way benefited from their stadium mega-complex (I haven't been to Indianapolis, but honestly, the area around the stadium does not inspire an image of revitalization that can be directly attributed to the deal https://www.google.ca/maps/place/Luc...3f09e1!6m1!1e1)

I am just trying to say that this doesnt appear to be the best way to revitalize a neighbourhood.

I still think the best way to revitalize an area is hipsters