German police hunt for group of up to 1,000 men 'of Arab and North African origin'

[Cappy]

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/01/03/wo...mwrsm=Facebook

I saw this story the other day, as well. Pretty interesting. Women always get the short end of the stick, and times of displacement make it even worse. These women can escape the war, but cultural oppression will continue to follow.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

The phrase "soft bigotry of low expectations" is a fantastic way to put it, marred only by the fact that it was coined by George W. Bush. Moral relativism is another obvious problem, by the way.

But I actually have sympathy for this sort of reasoning in part because I see myself doing something similar. I'm at a point where I sort of just laughingly dismiss a large proportion of right-wing nonsense as "there go those crazy tea party nuts again", but I'm much more focused on the flaws I see in the behaviour of my ideological bretheren... notwithstanding that although I think the left is in the process of completely losing its mind on certain issues, it's still perfectly coherent when compared to the carnival taking place under the GOP's big tent.

Well I think part of that is also what affects you/me personally. The crazy rantings of the far-right are probably not of a huge concern to you because most of what they're advocating for will never negatively affect the average white dude. However, when your "ideological brethren" go off the deep end it at least has some mild consequences for you in terms of identity and affiliation. I'm much the same way. I'm way harder on my leftist friends who are anti-GMO than I am on my friends who are right-wing climate-change deniers because at some level I feel implicated with the people I share a majority of opinions with.

The other concern - which I think Cliff expressed really well with the line about making perfect the enemy of the good - that we become so obsessed with minutae and ensuring utter purity of mind that we outlaw anything that mildly reeks of patriarchical or colonial modes of thought. That effort has some frightening implications, not the least of which is that I can't name a single person I'd trust to be the "patriarchy" gestapo, and certainly not any of the people I can think of off the top of my head as likely wanting the job.

There's some balance to be struck about not resting on the laurels of progress and recognizing that there's still work to be done on the topics of racism and sexism (and LGBT rights, and others), and turning progressivism into some sort of absolutist cult.

I think a lot of progressives, and for specificity's sake let's say feminists because they're usually the target here, would be fairly content if people would just acknowledge that patriarchy and privilege exist.

[Cappy]

[QUOTE=rubecube;5572125]I think it speaks to the fact that we hold higher standards for ourselves than we do others, which is probably a tad racist and patronizing.

Cultural relativism can be a dangerous thing.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Cultural relativism can be a dangerous thing.

I don't think it's cultural relativism because we're not excusing the behaviour of others based on their cultural values.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I don't think it's cultural relativism because we're not excusing the behaviour of others based on their cultural values.

I think we are to a certain extent. We all know of the horrors women go through in certain areas of the world, and how much of it relates to the cultural aspects of that place.

I think a lot of people do not get into a tizzy because they think, well it's their culture.

We can look at Sharia law from an objective point of view and think some of it is pure madness. But we arent rallying against its use in the muslim world. Only when it threatens to impact our justice system here.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Well it seems to me that part of what we're doing right is dismantling patriarchy and colonialism, so continuing to root it out in even it's most benign forms is probably more constructive than sitting here and patting ourselves on the backs.

But why did it happen in the West? Why did the women's rights movement, the LBGT movement, anti-racism movements, environmentalist, etc., start in Western Europe and the Anglo world, and not in China, India, Egypt, or Brazil?

As much as the Western tradition includes some pretty monstrous systems, it also birthed the reforms of those systems. The culture that gave the world colonialism also gave it the Enlightenment, democracy, the scientific revolution, and the rights revolution. As for patriarchy, it's more or less the universal human norm in every settled society in history, so hanging that on the West is just obtuse.

The progressive anti-Western left, virtually all of their ideals and principles, are themselves the product of Western culture. But that doesn't stop them from cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Without putting words in the guy's mouth I think in this case you're both actually hanging arguments on Rube that he isn't making.

Originally Posted by Cappy

I think a lot of people do not get into a tizzy because they think, well it's their culture.

I agree that many people do this and that it is one source of lack of the lack of moral outrage over practices in, for example Saudi Arabia. But we were talking about another source, which is a choice of prioritization. There are others still. So you're probably talking past him.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

As much as the Western tradition includes some pretty monstrous systems, it also birthed the reforms of those systems. The culture that gave the world colonialism also gave it the Enlightenment, democracy, the scientific revolution, and the rights revolution. As for patriarchy, it's more or less the universal human norm in every settled society in history, so hanging that on the West is just obtuse.

Seems to me his point is that even if we accept this rather optimistic viewpoint about the great things that have happened in Western culture over the past 200ish years, there are still flaws with how our society has developed. So, rooting out those flaws rather than ignoring them while congratulating ourselves for all the good stuff we've got going for us is still important.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

But why did it happen in the West? Why did the women's rights movement, the LBGT movement, anti-racism movements, environmentalist, etc., start in Western Europe and the Anglo world, and not in China, India, Egypt, or Brazil?

As much as the Western tradition includes some pretty monstrous systems, it also birthed the reforms of those systems. The culture that gave the world colonialism also gave it the Enlightenment, democracy, the scientific revolution, and the rights revolution.

This is a bit simplistic, but it's at least partially due to necessity and affluence, right?

As for patriarchy, it's more or less the universal human norm in every settled society in history, so hanging that on the West is just obtuse.

Who is making that argument?

The progressive anti-Western left, and virtually all of their ideals and principles, are themselves the product of Western culture. But that doesn't stop them from cutting off their own nose to spite their face.

I'm not sure why there's an issue with this unless you can demonstrate why or how discarding a particular Western tradition will lead to a negative outcome.

[2Stonedbirds]

Watched a video where a victim explained her situation and what happened. She wouldn't show her face because she was scared of being labeled a fascist, racist and all that fun crap. Inbetween sobs she explained how she was groped repeatedly, in the most intimate of places, again while feeling shamed into covering her face. My heart absolutely broke for this girl.

So... How long until we see brown shirts come out of the mothballs? This kind of crap keeps up and eventually shame and guilt will be overtaken by rage, a strong sense of nationalism and the rise of the far, far right.

If there's one thing history has shown us, it's that the Germans know how to get it on.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Watched a video where a victim explained her situation and what happened. She wouldn't show her face because she was scared of being labeled a fascist, racist and all that fun crap. Inbetween sobs she explained how she was groped repeatedly, in the most intimate of places, again while feeling shamed into covering her face. My heart absolutely broke for this girl.

So... How long until we see brown shirts come out of the mothballs? This kind of crap keeps up and eventually shame and guilt will be overtaken by rage, a strong sense of nationalism and the rise of the far, far right.

If there's one thing history has shown us, it's that the Germans know how to get it on.

I don't think it's as far off as people think. When you have the Golden Dawn party winning 10% of the vote in Greece, you've got a serious problem. This is their logo:



The German equivalent is the NDP, which gets about 1-2% of the vote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nation...rty_of_Germany

Even then, those numbers shock me. That's close to a million people voting for an outright racist and neo-nazi party. People would rather bury their heads in the sand and pretend nothing is wrong.

[2Stonedbirds]

Agree blankall, when people or a group of people believe that their country goes too far to one end of the political spectrum, the natural response is the rise of a party one the other end to provide "balance" to the voters.

It's the same reason why we are seeing guys like Trump and Sanders gain traction.

[CroFlames]

I doubt Germany ever "rises up" again. In fact, I'd guarantee that. The climate of world politics and commerce mean that all out conventional war, or even isolating yourself because you're racist is a bad thing. Too much to lose. The world was much different in the first half of the 20th century.

Smaller countries like Greece and such, now there the potential exists for far right groups to rise up and even bring back institutionalized racism.

[blankall]

The mayor of Cologne's response:

http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-trending-35243482

Women should just simply remain "at arm's length" from strangers.

[CliffFletcher]

Yeah, the militarism was beat right out of Germany in WWII. You might get gangs of skinheads beating up immigrants here and there (especially in the East), but I don't see it growing into a serious political movement. I don't mean to be complacent, and I do see Germans getting frustrated with their leaders if they stray too far beyond public opinion on immigration and integration. But that backlash would fall within the bounds of legitimate politics.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Agree blankall, when people or a group of people believe that their country goes too far to one end of the political spectrum, the natural response is the rise of a party one the other end to provide "balance" to the voters.

It's the same reason why we are seeing guys like Trump and Sanders gain traction.

That couldn't be more evident in the way this has been dealt with in the media. It was initially ignored by leftist media. Then turned into "coordinated attacks" by right wing media.

It was a bunch of drunk and up to no good young men from a place with different views on women. They decided to get some booze into them and head to the local train station. This was not "coordinated" rape gangs.

[FlamesAddiction]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

I doubt Germany ever "rises up" again. In fact, I'd guarantee that. The climate of world politics and commerce mean that all out conventional war, or even isolating yourself because you're racist is a bad thing. Too much to lose. The world was much different in the first half of the 20th century.

Smaller countries like Greece and such, now there the potential exists for far right groups to rise up and even bring back institutionalized racism.

Race/ethnicity has historically just been a convenient way to divide people so that one group could have more favourable access to resources than another. If you go back to Europe in the the early middle-ages, races weren't just defined by skin or appearance, but by community (some of these disputes still exist). There were literally a dozen different races recognized in Europe alone. Then the age of exploration started and colonialism ensued. In order to justify dominance in different continents, the concept was simplified. Race has always been a moving target.

With the shrinking world, the concept of race is becoming obsolete in most advanced societies, but don't underestimate the human desire to divide and conquer. Race and ethnicity will be replaced by something else and new parameters for class division will be set, and the fighting cycle will start new. It's the ugly side of human nature.

[Locke]

If Germany 'rises up' it will be economically. I mean, I think they technically already own Greece.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Locke

If Germany 'rises up' it will be economically. I mean, I think they technically already own Greece.

Rising up militarily or becoming an exclusively ethnic German country I think was implied.

On the other hand, Germany continues to rise up economically, and rightfully so. They don't abandon their poor people like the USA does, so I'd be right happy to see Germany emerge as the economic superpower of the next 50 years.

Spoiler!

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CroFlames

On the other hand, Germany continues to rise up economically, and rightfully so. They don't abandon their poor people like the USA does, so I'd be right happy to see Germany emerge as the economic superpower of the next 50 years.

Germany is simply too small to be an economic superpower. And given demographics, they're only going to get smaller. Which is why they were enthusiastic champions of the whole European Union project - Europe can only compete with the U.S. and China as a unified whole. The problem is that European countries have diverse and, it has become apparent, mutually exclusive attitudes about things like productivity, thrift, and fiscal policy.

[taco.vidal]

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...-with-you.html

The Cologne police chief was removed from his post on Friday amid growing public anger at his handling of the sex attacks in the city on New Year’s Eve.

Wolfang Albers was told he was being suspended from duty as allegations continue to mount of a police cover-up of asylum-seekers’ involvement in the attacks.

Ralf Jäger,the interior minister of North Rhine-Westphalia state, said his decision to suspend Mr Albers was “necessary to regain the public’s trust”.

More than 170 women have now filed criminal complaints over the incidents, 113 of them for sexual assaults.

Reports of similar sexual assaults on women during New Year’s Eve celebrations are emerging across northern Europe.

In Finland, three asylum-seekers have been arrested over incidents in the capital, Helsinki. Police said they had received information that groups of asylum-seekers planned to harass women in the city.

In Sweden, 15 women reported being sexually assaulted in the city of Kalmar on New Year’s Eve. Two asylum-seekers have been arrested in connection with the assaults.

In Switzerland, police in Zurich said six women reported being sexually assaulted and robbed in cases “a little similar” to those in Germany.
There have been reports of similar attacks in cities across Germany and in neighbouring Austria.