Pope accused of anti-Islamic remarks

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Are you saying that there have been 4 million deaths in Darfur thus far? You'll have to point me to where you're getting those stats; the figure I've commonly read is 400,000, with around 2 million people displaced in total. I also couldn't find any breakdown of the religion of victims, but it seems to me that given that only a small percentage of darfur is Christian, I would assume that the vast majority of the victims are muslim. Not saying your wrong, it's just that your numbers are very different than what I've read.

Back on topic, al-qaeda vowing vengence on the west? This is really not a new development. Most Islam leaders have called for cooler heads to prevail (including, surprisingly, Hamas). You've got a few hundred people burning an effigy in Basra, a city that's been central to the resistance in Iraq, and a senseless killing in Mogadishu, another city that's been embroiled in violence since the muslims tried to reclaim the city from the warlords. It's not like this is prompting the largely peaceful muslim masses to take up arms against the west; all those who are getting really angry are already involved in violent conflict against western powers or what they see as western-backed powers.

And the pope's apology was pretty half-assed. It was kinda like when you've been out drinking all night, and when your woman gets mad at you, you tell her you're sorry you made her angry. And maybe she accepts your apology, but if she's smart, she says, 'hey wait a minute, you didn't actually apologize for what you did, you only apologized for how I felt.'

You really need a history lesson if you think this way. I suggest you look for yourself...A LITTLE HARDER

2.5 million Christians living in Sudan...I say after 30 years of war there are 0.

Only after 3 or 4 there are as many black muslim victims.



As for the rest
....why would the Pope have to apologise for voicing his opinion? Doesn't he have th right to be wrong? Or right?

I guess not.

[RedHot25]

Originally Posted by HOZ

You really need a history lesson if you think this way. I suggest you look for yourself...A LITTLE HARDER

2.5 million Christians living in Sudan...I say after 30 years of war there are 0.

Only after 3 or 4 there are as many black muslim victims.



As for the rest
....why would the Pope have to apologise for voicing his opinion? Doesn't he have th right to be wrong? Or right?

I guess not.

[daveyboy]

We all ought to be careful about generailzing Muslims (and Catholics too). A few thousand extremists burning effigys of the Pope and calling for his death is not and by no means should be a reflection of the entire Islamic religion.

Extremism is certinatly not limited to Islam.

I think it would be very refreshing if we could see a meaningful dialouge between the world's religions. But, I don't think the Pope's speech was the way to get such a dialouge started.

[Cowperson]

I won't be in the business of defending the Pope, of all people, but I will say that if ALL organized religions were above introspection and criticism then we'd still be suffering the Inquisition and be under penalty of being burned at the stake if we didn't believe the sun circled the earth.

Do either Christianity or Islam merit protection from criticism?

The kind of reaction we see in the Muslim world to these kinds of slights - sadly reinforcing stereotypes if nothing else - underlines again the kind of 14th century, medieval time warp these immature cultures remain stuck in.

This Al-Queda message today was pretty funny . . . .

"We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax, then the only thing acceptable is a conversion (to Islam) or (killed by) the sword."

That pretty much jives with what the Byzantine Emperor quoted by the Pope had said.

Cowperson

[octothorp]

Originally Posted by HOZ

You really need a history lesson if you think this way. I suggest you look for yourself...A LITTLE HARDER

Hey, all I'm asking is where you're getting your stats from. It's not a question of how you think, it's a question of statistics. 400,000 deaths is the number most commonly used, and it seems in your last two posts that you're saying the deaths are in the millions. Or am I misreading what you're saying?

2.5 million Christians living in Sudan...I say after 30 years of war there are 0.

Only after 3 or 4 there are as many black muslim victims.

Are you saying that the number of deaths could reach into the millions in coming years if no international intervention is taken? If that's what you're saying then I agree with you absolutely. Without question, it's already the biggest crisis anywhere, and is only going to get worse unless immediate and decisive action is taken.

As for the rest
....why would the Pope have to apologise for voicing his opinion? Doesn't he have th right to be wrong? Or right?

I guess not.

He shouldn't have to apologize, and I don't think he really did. I don't agree with what he said and it seems to me like a bit of a pot-shot, even taken in context, but still the reaction by extremist muslim groups is completely over the top and unnecessary. Interesting question though, does the pope have the right to be wrong... I think that as God's supposed primary emissary here on earth, he has a greater responsibility to be right than Joe Public, and should always strive to make sure that he will not say anything that he will later have to take back.

[jolinar of malkshor]

Originally Posted by daveyboy

We all ought to be careful about generailzing Muslims (and Catholics too). A few thousand extremists burning effigys of the Pope and calling for his death is not and by no means should be a reflection of the entire Islamic religion.

Extremism is certinatly not limited to Islam.

I think it would be very refreshing if we could see a meaningful dialouge between the world's religions. But, I don't think the Pope's speech was the way to get such a dialouge started.

Yes, yes we all know ALL Muslims are not extremists. But when you have many countries teaching extremist views of Islam (Saudia Arabia, Iran, Pakistan) the burden falls on them to prove that they are actually peaceful. With all the violent reactions they have, it's hard to believe anything else.

[Jayems]

Anyone remember that episode of trading spouces with that crazy extremist christian lady? the.. well.. unpleasently plump one.. and were paird up with new-age hippies?

haha.. what a wacko.

I AM A GOD WARRIOR!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0MHK8ntKqk

[Calgaryborn]

http://www.scrappleface.com/

[Jayems]

Originally Posted by Calgaryborn

http://www.scrappleface.com/

A leading Muslim cleric in Baghdad welcomed the apology as he declared a Fatwa calling for the brutal execution of the 79 year-old Pontiff whom he referred to as “an infidel puppet of the Zionist pig baboons.”

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by Jayems

Anyone remember that episode of trading spouces with that crazy extremist christian lady? the.. well.. unpleasently plump one.. and were paird up with new-age hippies?

haha.. what a wacko.

I AM A GOD WARRIOR!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T0MHK8ntKqk

"Upon further review she accepted the money".

LOL. What a seriously crazy woman.

[arsenal]

Originally Posted by CaramonLS

"Upon further review she accepted the money".

LOL. What a seriously crazy woman.

That's the best. After she realizes that the "pagan's" set aside like $20,000 for her stomach surgery, she accepts the money.
What a selfish biotch...

But to get back on topic. CP is right. After reading the entire speech, people focus on one passage, and take it out of context. While I am not catholic and have no love for the Pope, he didn't say anything all that bad, when you put it into context and read the entire speech.
What's even worse is that you can take what was said in the 1300's and apply it to reaction today. Scary if you ask me.

[HOZ]

Originally Posted by octothorp

Hey, all I'm asking is where you're getting your stats from. It's not a question of how you think, it's a question of statistics. 400,000 deaths is the number most commonly used, and it seems in your last two posts that you're saying the deaths are in the millions. Or am I misreading what you're saying?



Are you saying that the number of deaths could reach into the millions in coming years if no international intervention is taken? If that's what you're saying then I agree with you absolutely. Without question, it's already the biggest crisis anywhere, and is only going to get worse unless immediate and decisive action is taken.




He shouldn't have to apologize, and I don't think he really did. I don't agree with what he said and it seems to me like a bit of a pot-shot, even taken in context, but still the reaction by extremist muslim groups is completely over the top and unnecessary. Interesting question though, does the pope have the right to be wrong... I think that as God's supposed primary emissary here on earth, he has a greater responsibility to be right than Joe Public, and should always strive to make sure that he will not say anything that he will later have to take back.

Sudan had a long civilwar (aka genocide) in the south against Christian Sudanese. This was before they launched their genocide attacks against the Dafur region.

That war resulted in a death toll reaching a million easily. 400,000 is a bit low. 4 million refugees in a country of 22 million. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/232803.stm


The agency, the United States Comittee for Refugees, said that the fight for control of southern and central Sudan had killed one in five of the southern Sudanese population - either by warfare, war-induced famine or direct government or rebel policies. Jeff Drumtra, a senior policy analyst with the organisation said the death count was "a fairly conservative estimate".

REUTERS Article in 2001
The conflict, which has intensified in recent months, has cost up to 2 million lives and displaced millions more.

I would say the Dafur death toll is getting close to a million. Well into the 6 figures.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by arsenal

But to get back on topic. CP is right. After reading the entire speech, people focus on one passage, and take it out of context. While I am not catholic and have no love for the Pope, he didn't say anything all that bad, when you put it into context and read the entire speech.

I agree to a certain extent--the context has been getting lost whenever these remarks get played. In essence, the Pope's comments are still pretty ill-advised, though. As I understand it, he's essentially saying that violence has no place in religion, because religion should value "reason." The problem is that he clearly implies that Christianity values reason over revelation whereas Islam values revelation over reason.

Not to get into the theologically nitty gritty here there are two problems with this statement. One is that it's inflammatory--and a scholar of religion ought to know that. The other is that it's pretty clearly untrue--and the Catholic religion's own history shows that. Extremist or fundamentalist religion DOES often value revelation over reason, or over the material world, and this DOES often result in violence--but this is clearly not solely the property of Islam, nor does Christianity have a monopoly on "reason."

Having said that, I echo the thoughts of some who have remarked on the irony that some muslims are turning to violence in order to protest the implication that they often turn to violence.

[ortyflame]

The Pope has the right to express whatever he wants. Its called freedom of speech. The world is dealing with islam and what it produces. The Pope did quote from older text and he is right to do so. Now the muslims all over the world are proving his text is true.
Like we didnt even know what the main cancer in the world is now. Islam is not good. Islam is hatred, terrorism, destruction. What good does islam do in this world to the non muslims besides behead and murder for their ******* allah guy.
Just remember, you can not talk to a muslim about any issue like this because they all get mad , knowing the fact is true about the Popes comments. They will say 'see america, they kill' thats because Dr Bush tells them too. Not allah.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

^^

I sure hope someone understood that post. I'm pretty sure that's what it says in the dictionary next to "incoherent."

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Iowa_Flames_Fan

^^

I sure hope someone understood that post. I'm pretty sure that's what it says in the dictionary next to "incoherent."

Ah, don't worry about it.

He's probably speaking more from emotion than anything.

[Vulcan]

Man, the Islamists reaction is really over the top. Having said that the Pope should stick to talking about what he supposedly represents, God, Christianity and Catholicism. He has no business, as far as I'm concerned [and he'd probably do much better], stepping into Islamic problems. Nothing good will come of it as has been shown. If he truely was wise, he'd know this.

[Azure]

And yet Vulcan, some people EXPECT him to step into those problems because of the position he holds.

Sadly, the extremists are proving his comments 100% correct.

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Ah, don't worry about it.

He's probably speaking more from emotion than anything.

You may be right. But he refers to Islam as "a cult" in his title, and then all I understood from his rant was that Islam is the source of evil in the world. Which, not for nothing, is actually NOT what the pope was saying at all!

I just think some people should, you know, read the whole thread before going off half-cocked, as it were. Had he done so, he might have noticed a number of people cautioning everyone against overgeneralizations. Just my two cents. I know that you're probably right, and far be it from me to judge a guy based on one post. (if that was the standard, I'd have made your ignore list a long time ago, right? )

[Iowa_Flames_Fan]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

Man, the Islamists reaction is really over the top. Having said that the Pope should stick to talking about what he supposedly represents, God, Christianity and Catholicism. He has no business, as far as I'm concerned [and he'd probably do much better], stepping into Islamic problems. Nothing good will come of it as has been shown. If he truely was wise, he'd know this.

To be honest, I don't think the pope's role in world politics is totally clear. It might be to us non-catholics--but those people who truly believe that the pope is infallible and chosen by god could probably be forgiven for expecting him to intervene in a whole range of issues that he might not immediately seem to have a lot of stake in. But for what it's worth, I agree--although in a way he didn't say what he's being accused of saying, his comments were definitely ill advised.