CalgaryNEXT Discussion pt. 2

[#-3]

I actually think the mass opposition to this is a product of group think and not really rational, aside from 4 pictures and a proposed funding breakdown. there was absolutely nothing in the presentation that anyone following this board didn't know going ahead of time.

We knew it was in the west village.
We knew the land was contaminated
We knew it was Hockey/Football/Field House
We knew it was $1B +/-
We knew the Flames would not put up 100% of the funding up front.

Really the only two things that were disappointing from the presentation were the funding breakdown and how little they had to show. But neither of those have anything to do with the concept or if it can work. It just tells me it is a much bigger hill to climb than I thought it would be to make it work.

Do I support the concept? Yes
Do I think they have presented a feasible plan to complete this project? No

[GreenLantern2814]

Reading the thread about Edmonton's arena project, it seems the community arena that was to be part of the project has had $10 million slashed from its budget in a "cost cutting measure", and the initial projected capacity of 2000 seats is now closer to 800.

People are not pleased with the bait And switch.

[NiklasSundblad]

Originally Posted by shotinthebacklund

I would like to see a poll for the people unhappy with the current CalgaryNEXT proposal exactly where your dislike lies.

design?

There is no design, there is merely a vague sketch. The residential portion doesn't even make sense as proposed. There was no site plan presented, I guess because none exists. The mess of roadways wasn't addressed at all. Furthermore, does the Field House design conform to the needs of its users? I will bet the Flames put the needs of their football team first. The only positive I saw is that they seemingly want to build a contemporary looking building, and not a faux-brick, horse shaped barn or whatever.

funding proposal?

The funding proposal relies on cannibalizing demand for residential development in the rest of the inner city. The East Village redevelopment is already funded using a similar model, until it's been paid back it would be beyond foolish for the city to compete with itself in the West Village.

Location?

I want to see the West Village fixed up as much as anyone, but the time isn't right. There are still vast swaths of inner city land that don't require untold hundreds of millions of dollars of cleanup, for example, the rail lands south of the East Village where Bunk proposed the new arena go. The main difference is the Flames would have to buy the land (and/or partner with Remington, an experienced developer) and not be handed the land.

All of the above?

Basically.

[NiklasSundblad]

Originally Posted by shotinthebacklund

I wonder who designed Sun alta station and who is designing the new arena....

Same architect (GEC) that did the Flames Community Arena, but I can't find any direct reference to their involvment with CalgaryNext.

Found it: http://www.rkvisual.ca/news/article.php?id=17

Interesting GEC has not a single reference to it on their website and isn't mentioned in any of the materials. They do have a pretty long history of working with the Flames though.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by #-3

I actually think the mass opposition to this is a product of group think and not really rational, aside from 4 pictures and a proposed funding breakdown. there was absolutely nothing in the presentation that anyone following this board didn't know going ahead of time.

We knew it was in the west village.
We knew the land was contaminated
We knew it was Hockey/Football/Field House
We knew it was $1B +/-
We knew the Flames would not put up 100% of the funding up front.

Really the only two things that were disappointing from the presentation were the funding breakdown and how little they had to show. But neither of those have anything to do with the concept or if it can work. It just tells me it is a much bigger hill to climb than I thought it would be to make it work.

Do I support the concept? Yes
Do I think they have presented a feasible plan to complete this project? No

I like how you've broken it down to keep the conversation level headed. However I would say that people are also disappointed with the location. I, as do many, like neither putting it in the west village before the east village fills out nor stealing the prime part of the west village real estate (right on the river).

Do I like the concept of the building? Of course.
Do I like the funding model or the location? Nope.
Are those really important things? Yep.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by #-3

We were pretty sure it was in the west village.
We knew the land was contaminated
We were pretty sure it was Hockey/Football/Field House
We were pretty sure it was $1B +/-
We were pretty sure the Flames would not put up 100% of the funding up front.

FYP. We have 'known' a lot of different things over the years, but until Flames went public with a 'proposal' we didn't actually know anything.

I'm still not convinced we aren't seeing Plan B first.

[HotHotHeat]

It seems fairly clear that King realizes the extent of this failed PR campaign. No recent interviews, news, etc.

I haven't been to a game in a couple weeks - Are they still playing the CalgaryNEXT promo videos during intermissions?

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by #-3

I actually think the mass opposition to this is a product of group think and not really rational, aside from 4 pictures and a proposed funding breakdown. there was absolutely nothing in the presentation that anyone following this board didn't know going ahead of time.

We knew it was in the west village.
We knew the land was contaminated
We knew it was Hockey/Football/Field House
We knew it was $1B +/-
We knew the Flames would not put up 100% of the funding up front.

Really the only two things that were disappointing from the presentation were the funding breakdown and how little they had to show. But neither of those have anything to do with the concept or if it can work. It just tells me it is a much bigger hill to climb than I thought it would be to make it work.

Do I support the concept? Yes
Do I think they have presented a feasible plan to complete this project? No

I thought I followed the thread pretty consistently, and I do not remember any of that stuff getting leaked or know on the board before the announcement.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I thought I followed the thread pretty consistently, and I do not remember any of that stuff getting leaked or know on the board before the announcement.

Out of the 5 things, 4 were discussed and the $1B would have been a conclusion the you'd come to on the basis of other projects.

West Village was certainly discussed, so was the probability of a fieldhouse (I remember not knowing what one was ), and the public funding component.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

It seems fairly clear that King realizes the extent of this failed PR campaign. No recent interviews, news, etc.

I haven't been to a game in a couple weeks - Are they still playing the CalgaryNEXT promo videos during intermissions?

The played it at the Roughnecks game last weekend.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

Out of the 5 things, 4 were discussed and the $1B would have been a conclusion the you'd come to on the basis of other projects.

West Village was certainly discussed, so was the probability of a fieldhouse (I remember not knowing what one was ), and the public funding component.

Thanks,

I remember some of the West Village discussions etc., especially after the Calgary Herald did the big story about it.

But just because we have "known" some of this stuff, doesn't mean we agreed with it at the time. We heard rumours it could be in West Village, but also Firestone! Do you think if they released the proposal with the Firestone location, people wouldn't be opposed?

I think its difficult to call this "group think" because we may have heard some rumblings of the plans

[hockey.modern]

Sounds like Gary Bettman will be here on the 11th to give some of his insights on the project.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I support CalgaryNEXT. It is unfortunate the west village remains undeveloped due to the creosote and this solves that problem. That is valuable land that helps increase the downtown core west. I also support it for selfish reasons because I live west of downtown so it is pretty close

The West Village is undeveloped because the city is intentionally allowing other areas, particular the East Village, to saturate first.

[Tyler]

Originally Posted by hockey.modern

Sounds like Gary Bettman will be here on the 11th to give some of his insights on the project.

[Zarley]

Originally Posted by NiklasSundblad

The funding proposal relies on cannibalizing demand for residential development in the rest of the inner city. The East Village redevelopment is already funded using a similar model, until it's been paid back it would be beyond foolish for the city to compete with itself in the West Village.

I generally agree with your other points, but you are missing the mark on this one.

CMLC's existing East Village project is currently cannibalizing demand from other areas of the inner city that do not require intensive public investment while subsidizing private developers who build in the district. It's a matter of the City prioritizing the revitalization of a blighted area over the intensification of existing districts.

If we wait until the CRL for the East Village is paid back, we won't see any movement on the WV for over a decade. I think what you mean to say is that the West Village should proceed upon buildout of the East Village. If the Flames' West Village plan goes ahead I doubt you'll see construction starting for five years. The start of residential development in the WV would then coincide with completion of the EV (assuming absorption patterns hold).

By including an arena/entertainment complex within the WV (obviously under a revised master plan) we can jumpstart remediation/revitalization of the area and potentially attract higher (property tax) value commercial and retail development to the area. Also, rather than simply spending public dollars on revitalization to subsidize residential development, we can use some of that investment to provide a facility that will benefit all Calgarians.

Those of you who are writing off the concept in its entirety are missing the mark. There are some good ideas underlying CalgaryNext, but unfortunately poor execution is leading to the rejection of the idea as a whole. I would hope that the Flames bring an experienced developer on board and prepare a comprehensive master plan as a next step.

[ThisIsAnOutrage]

I don't support the current version; perhaps in the future some detail will emerge that will change my position, but I doubt it. The thing that gets me, and I wager I'm not alone on this point, is that aside from the it's-a-shiny-new-arena-vibe there's not just not a lot to like about the project. The big details we know are that it's expensive, involves a massive amount of public money, is in a dubious location, and the funding for decontamination is coming from we know not where. The suck far outweighs the good. Far.

[Benched]

Originally Posted by HotHotHeat

It seems fairly clear that King realizes the extent of this failed PR campaign. No recent interviews, news, etc.

I haven't been to a game in a couple weeks - Are they still playing the CalgaryNEXT promo videos during intermissions?

Yes.

And on every screen in the concourse pre game.

[Bunk]

Originally Posted by Zarley

I generally agree with your other points, but you are missing the mark on this one.

CMLC's existing East Village project is currently cannibalizing demand from other areas of the inner city that do not require intensive public investment while subsidizing private developers who build in the district. It's a matter of the City prioritizing the revitalization of a blighted area over the intensification of existing districts.

If we wait until the CRL for the East Village is paid back, we won't see any movement on the WV for over a decade. I think what you mean to say is that the West Village should proceed upon buildout of the East Village. If the Flames' West Village plan goes ahead I doubt you'll see construction starting for five years. The start of residential development in the WV would then coincide with completion of the EV (assuming absorption patterns hold).

By including an arena/entertainment complex within the WV (obviously under a revised master plan) we can jumpstart remediation/revitalization of the area and potentially attract higher (property tax) value commercial and retail development to the area. Also, rather than simply spending public dollars on revitalization to subsidize residential development, we can use some of that investment to provide a facility that will benefit all Calgarians.

Those of you who are writing off the concept in its entirety are missing the mark. There are some good ideas underlying CalgaryNext, but unfortunately poor execution is leading to the rejection of the idea as a whole. I would hope that the Flames bring an experienced developer on board and prepare a comprehensive master plan as a next step.

Thoughtful post.

The question is, does an Arena/Stadium better enable redevelopment or potentially hamper it by virtue of a) additional money ($240m) required from a CRL to pay for the stadium AND remediation and other infrastructure costs, and b) taking up a significant amount of the land that's necessary to have high tax yields to pay back that debt?

Back of envelope, I can't see how the pro-forma adds up.

[PeteMoss]

A lot of the 'yes' votes (at least the ones posting in the thread) seem to hinge on the Flames/Ken King not showing everything or using it as a starting point.

Based on the assumption that we know everything there is to know - I suspect the support here is even less than the 22.5% the poll is showing.

[RM14]

Looking forward to the environmental report so we can finally get moving or not on the next steps.