German police hunt for group of up to 1,000 men 'of Arab and North African origin'

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

On nobody's orders. The suppression is voluntary. This is the way the thinking goes:

1. Right-wing hate groups are bad.
   
2. Right-wing hate groups feed off stories of immigrants and foreigners doing bad things to natives.
   
3. Publishing stories about immigrants and foreigners doing bad things to locals will fuel right-wing hate groups. Which is bad.
   
4. So we shouldn't publish those sorts of stories.

I've noticed some prominent media outlets have not enabled comments for this story. Another soft suppression of expression. The sentiment is well-meaning, but terribly misguided and dangerous to public dialogue. The more the media tries to be gate-keepers for this sort of debate, the more they'll simply drive the dialogue underground, while diminishing their own credibility and relevance.

And honestly, does anyone think we wouldn't see far, far more media attention to a mass crime and harassment outbreak like this at a U.S. college town involving hundreds of drunk and rowdy frat boys? The columns about rape culture would be all over the front page of every news outlet and forum on the internet.

It's a little more directed than this. Bipartisanship has taken over huge swaths of our society, including the media. Letting in migrants became associated with the left. Therefore, the left will try to downplay or hide this. As you've said had it been a story they could have linked to white privilege (frat boys) or gun control, this would have been all over every left wing news source.

The right wing news sources are just as bad. It's a huge global problem that unbiased news reporting is so difficult to come by. News sources (and people in general) will use a total lack of judgement or even outright lie when reporting the news, as long as it pushes their agenda and/or makes them profit.

[CliffFletcher]

What troubles me as a liberal is the progressive left is vigilant about any incidence of sexual harassment or patriarchal oppression unless its perpetrated by non-whites or non-Christians. White men preying on native women? Call a royal commission. Native men preying on native women? <crickets chirping>. Conservative Christians want to keep the HPV vaccine out of schools? Those ignorant rednecks! Asian immigrants want to keep the HPV vaccine out of schools? <tumbleweed blows across picture>.

Why is it so hard for progressives to acknowledge that the modern West is the most liberal and progressive culture in the world, and by far the best society in the world for women (and gays) to pursue their aspirations in defiance of traditional oppression? Is white guilt so deeply ingrained that it trumps all other progressive values?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by blankall

It's a little more directed than this. Bipartisanship has taken over huge swaths of our society, including the media. Letting in migrants became associated with the left. Therefore, the left will try to downplay or hide this. As you've said had it been a story they could have linked to white privilege (frat boys) or gun control, this would have been all over every left wing news source.

The right wing news sources are just as bad. It's a huge global problem that unbiased news reporting is so difficult to come by. News sources (and people in general) will use a total lack of judgement or even outright lie when reporting the news, as long as it pushes their agenda and/or makes them profit.

I've come to see it as less a constellation of beliefs as conflicting narratives. Take Israel - what is their narrative? A story about a historically oppressed group of people doing the best they can to survive while surrounded by genocidal barbarians intent on murdering them to the last man, woman and child? Or an oppressive regime backed by imperialists that remorselessly kills thousands indiscriminately, preserving awful living conditions for the exiled poor they've made into permanent refugees, while living in relative luxury in their stolen homeland? It's no wonder that topic is totally unsusceptible to reasonable conversation. We're seeing this more and more on more and more issues.

You've actually seen this sort of thinking become explicit lately - we have a particular narrative in which the following people are good and the following are bad, and noticing exceptions or nuance would challenge this narrative. When cast in this way, it becomes a little easier to see how people with different ideological perspectives can look at the same world and see completely different things.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I've come to see it as less a constellation of beliefs as conflicting narratives...

You've actually seen this sort of thinking become explicit lately - we have a particular narrative in which the following people are good and the following are bad, and noticing exceptions or nuance would challenge this narrative. When cast in this way, it becomes a little easier to see how people with different ideological perspectives can look at the same world and see completely different things.

Absolutely. Reason is a thin crust over a morass of emotional needs and irrational beliefs. That's why these stories are typically crafted as narratives. And what do we know about popular narratives? That we like them to have heroes and villains, to be unambiguous, and to be emotionally satisfying. Complexity and nuance are irksome if they interfere with a satisfying narrative. This simplification in the service of narrative is just as entrenched on the left as on the right, and just as toxic to rational discourse.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What troubles me as a liberal is the progressive left is vigilant about any incidence of sexual harassment or patriarchal oppression unless its perpetrated by non-whites or non-Christians. White men preying on native women? Call a royal commission. Native men preying on native women? <crickets chirping>. Conservative Christians want to keep the HPV vaccine out of schools? Those ignorant rednecks! Asian immigrants want to keep the HPV vaccine out of schools? <tumbleweed blows across picture>.

Why is it so hard for progressives to acknowledge that the modern West is the most liberal and progressive culture in the world, and by far the best environment for women (and gays) to pursue their aspirations in defiance of traditional oppression? Is white guilt so deeply ingrained that it trumps all other progressive values?

It's partisanship. Loyalty to a political party and set of beliefs trumps all else. This includes basics principles like freedom of speech or access to unbiased media.

That's why people like Christopher Hitchens (RIP) are so refreshing. He was someone who actually stuck to principles and spoke out about them.

[polak]

I don't see why people have to make this a right vs. left thing.

Letting in Migrants with the intention of helping them start a new life = good.
Doing it poorly without a well thought out plan and strategy = bad

Rape and Violence is bad. People who do it are bad people. Regardless of religion.

Where does right and left come in?

I see this thread turning into:

"Woohoo congrats, women got raped, high five! Stupid liberals"

[blankall]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I've come to see it as less a constellation of beliefs as conflicting narratives. Take Israel - what is their narrative? A story about a historically oppressed group of people doing the best they can to survive while surrounded by genocidal barbarians intent on murdering them to the last man, woman and child? Or an oppressive regime backed by imperialists that remorselessly kills thousands indiscriminately, preserving awful living conditions for the exiled poor they've made into permanent refugees, while living in relative luxury in their stolen homeland? It's no wonder that topic is totally unsusceptible to reasonable conversation. We're seeing this more and more on more and more issues.

You've actually seen this sort of thinking become explicit lately - we have a particular narrative in which the following people are good and the following are bad, and noticing exceptions or nuance would challenge this narrative. When cast in this way, it becomes a little easier to see how people with different ideological perspectives can look at the same world and see completely different things.

It's not conflicting narratives, as the narratives change to fit whatever end goal people want. There's also an extreme amount revisionism. Basically, it's people trying to reach an end goal at any costs. If that means purposely lying, fine. Throwing women's rights under the bus, also fine. As long as the end goal of supporting whatever side of the conflict you arbitrarily define yourself to be on, you've won.

I would agree that the narratives becomes a tool, and people do prefer the black/white illusions over the nuanced realities. I just don't see the narratives themselves as that important, as those are open to change and revision to suit whatever the circumstances are.

[troutman]

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-sex-assaults/

News editors of ZDF’s flagship “heute” (today) evening news programme apologised on social media for not reporting on the incidents at least in its Monday evening bulletin, four days after the attacks.

“The news situation was clear enough. It was a mistake of the 7pm ‘heute’ show not to at least report the incidents,” wrote deputy chief editor Elmar Thevessen on the show’s Facebook page.

Editors had decided to postpone the news segment to Tuesday, the day Cologne’s city hall and police held a crisis meeting on the attacks, he wrote, admitting this was “a clear misjudgement”.

Sounds more like poor judgement or an over-abundance of caution, than a cover-up.

[blankall]

Originally Posted by troutman

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016...-sex-assaults/

News editors of ZDF’s flagship “heute” (today) evening news programme apologised on social media for not reporting on the incidents at least in its Monday evening bulletin, four days after the attacks.

“The news situation was clear enough. It was a mistake of the 7pm ‘heute’ show not to at least report the incidents,” wrote deputy chief editor Elmar Thevessen on the show’s Facebook page.

Editors had decided to postpone the news segment to Tuesday, the day Cologne’s city hall and police held a crisis meeting on the attacks, he wrote, admitting this was “a clear misjudgement”.

Sounds more like poor judgement or an over-abundance of caution, than a cover-up.

I don't see how an "over abundance of caution" in certain issues while reporting other stories with reckless abandon (and often a total lack of fact checking) is any different than a cover-up.

Once again, it's both the left and right wing media doing this.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by polak

I don't see why people have to make this a right vs. left thing.

Letting in Migrants with the intention of helping them start a new life = good.
Doing it poorly without a well thought out plan and strategy = bad

Rape and Violence is bad. People who do it are bad people. Regardless of religion.

Where does right and left come in?

I see this thread turning into:

"Woohoo congrats, women got raped, high five! Stupid liberals"

Yeah, but a little simplistic as well.

We here in Canada have the luxury of that little pond in between us, these countries are on the front lines.

So we can say "Sure, we'll take 30,000" and bring them in in a nice orderly manner.

But when a few hundred thousand or even a million refugees pretty much literally show up on your doorstep overnight its a whole other ball game.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

What troubles me as a liberal is the progressive left is vigilant about any incidence of sexual harassment or patriarchal oppression unless its perpetrated by non-whites or non-Christians. White men preying on native women? Call a royal commission. Native men preying on native women? <crickets chirping>. Conservative Christians want to keep the HPV vaccine out of schools? Those ignorant rednecks! Asian immigrants want to keep the HPV vaccine out of schools? <tumbleweed blows across picture>.

Why is it so hard for progressives to acknowledge that the modern West is the most liberal and progressive culture in the world, and by far the best society in the world for women (and gays) to pursue their aspirations in defiance of traditional oppression? Is white guilt so deeply ingrained that it trumps all other progressive values?

Man, you really love this strawman, don't you?

[polak]

Oh definitely. Those countries had it much harder than we did.

We get the luxury of debating it.

[CliffFletcher]

Not a strawman, as Sheema Khan points out in a column in today's Globe & Mail:

This journey opened my eyes to my own double standards: I fought for Muslims to be treated with basic human dignity by the wider society, yet looked the other way when such treatment was denied to women within my own community.

Toward the end of my CAIR-CAN tenure, I could no longer stand the hypocrisy, and decided to tackle a fundamental problem that our community has been content to ignore: the treatment of women as second-class human beings. As chair, I came across incidents against Muslim women that would never have been tolerated had these been perpetrated by a non-Muslim. But if a Muslim did it, well, we would let it go, hoping that attitudes would one day change.

It was, and continues to be, the denial of the fact that many Muslim cultures have a bias against women...

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle28034962/

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Not a strawman, as Sheema Khan points out in a column in today's Globe & Mail:



http://www.theglobeandmail.com/globe...ticle28034962/

Well fair enough I guess. Maybe my own views are blinding me. I consider myself pretty progressive, as are many of my peers, but I don't think any of us would disagree that the treatment of women is better in Western countries than in Muslim countries.

[rubecube]

Although this is the part that reads like a bit of a strawman to me, or does in its common usage anyways. It seems that this argument gets trotted out whenever feminists or whomever argues that we're still perpetuating patriarchy. Even if the West is the most liberal and progressive culture in the world, there's still work to be done in making it less patriarchal and oppressive.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Why is it so hard for progressives to acknowledge that the modern West is the most liberal and progressive culture in the world, and by far the best society in the world for women (and gays) to pursue their aspirations in defiance of traditional oppression? Is white guilt so deeply ingrained that it trumps all other progressive values?

[polak]

Welcoming more of them into our culture might help that issue, no?

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Well fair enough I guess. Maybe my own views are blinding me. I consider myself pretty progressive, as are many of my peers, but I don't think any of us would disagree that the treatment of women is better in Western countries than in Muslim countries.

There are actually some people who are blurring this line, and it's tempting to lump them into a monolith. I think you're right, generally. But there are clear trends towards people who I guess would also describe themselves being much more concerned about transgressions of this sort from people who come from privileged backgrounds. There's really a startling lack of outrage over the treatment of women, gays and secularists in certain places worldwide, and there are a number of explanations for that.

For example, let's say I'm an American, who is particularly concerned with American involvement in the Middle East. I spend a ton of energy criticizing US foreign policy and the actions of the US military, and comparatively little energy talking about the practices of America's enemies, or other countries. My response might be, "Of course I'm focused on what the USA is doing wrong. I'm an American, I want to focus on problems WE'RE causing". People often take this line in discussing Chomsky.

From where I sit, that's an overly nationalistic perspective, but I can see the appeal. Still, I can't help but be frustrated by the lack of outrage expressed over, for example, the rape of thousands of women by ISIS, or the torture of Raif Badawi. You'd be right to say that no one in their right mind thinks these things are anything other than a horror, but the degree to which people actually express any concern at all over this behaviour pales in comparison to the poaching of a lion last year. I think there are probably a number of reasons for this, too.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Although this is the part that reads like a bit of a strawman to me, or does in its common usage anyways. It seems that this argument gets trotted out whenever feminists or whomever argues that we're still perpetuating patriarchy. Even if the West is the most liberal and progressive culture in the world, there's still work to be done in making it less patriarchal and oppressive.

Yes, there's more to be done. On sexism. And violence. And corruption. And every other human failing that will never be eradicated. But the left too often let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Shouldn't we consider why it is that women are treated better in the West than elsewhere in the world, if only so we can recognize what we're doing right and keep doing it?

Murder is terrible too. But if we cut the murder rate in half over 30 years, shouldn't we recognize that achievement, and how it came about? Rather than saying that one murder is too many and until murder is eradicated altogether we'll have to live with the shame of perpetuating murder culture?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

There are actually some people who are blurring this line, and it's tempting to lump them into a monolith. I think you're right, generally. But there are clear trends towards people who I guess would also describe themselves being much more concerned about transgressions of this sort from people who come from privileged backgrounds. There's really a startling lack of outrage over the treatment of women, gays and secularists in certain places worldwide, and there are a number of explanations for that.

For example, let's say I'm an American, who is particularly concerned with American involvement in the Middle East. I spend a ton of energy criticizing US foreign policy and the actions of the US military, and comparatively little energy talking about the practices of America's enemies, or other countries. My response might be, "Of course I'm focused on what the USA is doing wrong. I'm an American, I want to focus on problems WE'RE causing". People often take this line in discussing Chomsky.

From where I sit, that's an overly nationalistic perspective, but I can see the appeal. Still, I can't help but be frustrated by the lack of outrage expressed over, for example, the rape of thousands of women by ISIS, or the torture of Raif Badawi. You'd be right to say that no one in their right mind thinks these things are anything other than a horror, but the degree to which people actually express any concern at all over this behaviour pales in comparison to the poaching of a lion last year. I think there are probably a number of reasons for this, too.

I think it speaks to the fact that we hold higher standards for ourselves than we do others, which is probably a tad racist and patronizing.

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Yes, there's more to be done. On sexism. And violence. And corruption. And every other human failing that will never be eradicated. But the left too often let the perfect be the enemy of the good. Shouldn't we consider why it is that women are treated better in the West than elsewhere in the world, if only so we can recognize what we're doing right and keep doing it?

Well it seems to me that part of what we're doing right is dismantling patriarchy and colonialism, so continuing to root it out in even it's most benign forms is probably more constructive than sitting here and patting ourselves on the backs. I do get what you're saying though, in that there's a concern that in focusing too much on the obscure stuff, we're overlooking and allowing the more extremist elements to creep back into our society.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I think it speaks to the fact that we hold higher standards for ourselves than we do others, which is probably a tad racist and patronizing.

The phrase "soft bigotry of low expectations" is a fantastic way to put it, marred only by the fact that it was coined by George W. Bush. Moral relativism is another obvious problem, by the way.

But I actually have sympathy for this sort of reasoning in part because I see myself doing something similar. I'm at a point where I sort of just laughingly dismiss a large proportion of right-wing nonsense as "there go those crazy tea party nuts again", but I'm much more focused on the flaws I see in the behaviour of my ideological bretheren... notwithstanding that although I think the left is in the process of completely losing its mind on certain issues, it's still perfectly coherent when compared to the carnival taking place under the GOP's big tent.

Well it seems to me that part of what we're doing right is dismantling patriarchy and colonialism, so continuing to root it out in even it's most benign forms is probably more constructive than sitting here and patting ourselves on the backs. I do get what you're saying though, in that there's a concern that in focusing too much on the obscure stuff, we're overlooking and allowing the more extremist elements to creep back into our society.

The other concern - which I think Cliff expressed really well with the line about making perfect the enemy of the good - that we become so obsessed with minutae and ensuring utter purity of mind that we outlaw anything that mildly reeks of patriarchical or colonial modes of thought. That effort has some frightening implications, not the least of which is that I can't name a single person I'd trust to be the "patriarchy" gestapo, and certainly not any of the people I can think of off the top of my head as likely wanting the job.

There's some balance to be struck about not resting on the laurels of progress and recognizing that there's still work to be done on the topics of racism and sexism (and LGBT rights, and others), and turning progressivism into some sort of absolutist cult.