*SPOILER DISCUSSION* Star Wars The Force Awakens *POST HERE AFTER SEEING THE MOVIE*

[sureLoss]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Is the rule of two in the movies. I don't remember it at all

It is mentioned by Yoda in the Phantom Menace.

"Always two there are. A master and an apprentice."

[Fuzz]

I don't consider the prequels cannon though.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by sureLoss

It is mentioned by Yoda in the Phantom Menace.

"Always two there are. A master and an apprentice."

That's something I never understood. The galaxy is a huge place and the jedi/sith thing is centuries old... what exactly would stop a rival sith in a distant system from becoming or attempting to become a sith lord? You would think if there are so many force sensitive beings our there that more than two would aspire to be a sith. There was tons of jedi bit only two sith... it doesn't make a lick of sense.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Couldn't it just as easily mean that every sith lord always takes an apprentice? Not that there are literally only two in a galaxy that likely has hundreds of billions of inhabitants.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

That's something I never understood. The galaxy is a huge place and the jedi/sith thing is centuries old... what exactly would stop a rival sith in a distant system from becoming or attempting to become a sith lord? You would think if there are so many force sensitive beings our there that more than two would aspire to be a sith. There was tons of jedi bit only two sith... it doesn't make a lick of sense.

The Sith are different from someone who just uses the darkside of the Force in terms of philosophy and knowledge.

Because a Sith Lord recruits his own apprentice and then passes down generations of knowledge and training, its unlikely that anyone outside of that order will become a Sith.

Its not just about falling to the darkside of the Force. There were lots of those during the Clone Wars. Even Ventress wasn't considered to be a Sith because she was never given that knowledge or the specific Sith training. Instead she was taught to use her rage and be an assassin.

The Sith under Bane had specific goals and specific secrets that are only shared between a master and apprentice.

When Palpatine died and Vader turned and then died that knowledge wasn't passed on.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Couldn't it just as easily mean that every sith lord always takes an apprentice? Not that there are literally only two in a galaxy that likely has hundreds of billions of inhabitants.

Nope because it would be more then likely that those two Sith Lords would focus on killing the other one as a threat.

In Canon Palpatine when he confronted Maul, stated that he was no longer his apprentice but was a rival.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Fair enough, I'm not going to argue with CC obviously. Still, it just seems like such a delicate balance. For millenia, only 2 people at a time know the craft and it somehow survives with Jedi relentlessly fighting them, outnumbering them by a huge amount most of the time? Under that line of reasoning wouldn't the whole idea of sith be dead at this point? If Palpatine and Vader are dead, and only they could teach the next generation, would that not mean that the sith is gone forever?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Fair enough, I'm not going to argue with CC obviously. Still, it just seems like such a delicate balance. For millenia, only 2 people at a time know the craft and it somehow survives with Jedi relentlessly fighting them, outnumbering them by a huge amount most of the time? Under that line of reasoning wouldn't the whole idea of sith be dead at this point? If Palpatine and Vader are dead, and only they could teach the next generation, would that not mean that the the sith is gone forever?

Bane basically exterminated the Sith at the battle of Ruusan as he enacted his philosophy of the rule of two.

On top of that the Sith self exiled and hid for thousands of years, working from the shadows and slowly tipping the balance of the force, but they didn't operate in the open. They spent their time learning not only everything about the darkside, but everything about the jedi so that they could someday enact their revenge and have the galaxy fall into their hands.

Remember that the Jedi had become incredibly arrogant as well, they were convinced that the Sith were destroyed at Ruusan and didn't look for them, and the Sith sat in their self exile and built intelligence network and corrupted governments, and engineered the downfall of their enemies.

Thats the purist view, that the Sith just decided to vanish and work towards one day enacting the grand plan and revealing themselves once they had the Jedi lured into their trap. In the mean time they evolved, while the Jedi were still fighting the same way and war that they had fought thousands of years ago.


That was pretty much laid into Canon in both the Phantom Menace book, and the Revenge of the Sith novel. It was also touched on in the Clone Wars series.

In terms of non canon there was another Sith group in hiding called the one Sith that were a bunch of Sith that served one lord in harmony, the redeeming factor in this one is that they eventually turned on each other 130 years or so after ROTJ and destroyed themselves.

[Sr. Mints]

It's been about two weeks since I saw it (Dec 24), and I still haven't completely digested it. I liked the movie, don't get me wrong, but how does any movie successfully live up to the hype The Force Awakens has faced?

What impressed me from start to finish was how much TFA looked, sounded, and felt like Star Wars. The prequels didn't achieve this for a combined 60 seconds, but TFA was so Star Wars, they absolutely nailed it!

About half way through I started thinking, 'this is going to be a goddamn cliffhanger, I bet.' Then bam: 30 seconds of Luke and see you next Christmas. It annoyed me, but I'm over it.

Having successfully avoided *all* spoilers and news for the past ~18 months, I had no idea what to expect, but what a fun movie! All I wanted to do after the credits rolled was go home and dig through my Star Wars video games and play them non stop.

[Hack&Lube]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Is the rule of two in the movies. I don't remember it at all

No, which was perfect. There was no weird lore or silly names. Nobody ever says Sith or Padawan or Midiclorians or rule of two in the original trilogy, etc.

The Emperor is just the Emperor. Vader calls him his master and he calls Vader his "friend" in a twisted way. The Sith are never mentioned, only the Dark Side of the force.

The rule of two doesn't even make sense in the context of the original trilogy as Vader clearly bargains to turn Luke and bring him into the fold for the three of them to work together. If the rule of two were true all along, he would know that Palpatine would never allow this and that he would just be laying the seeds for his convenient replacement. In ROTJ we finally get the realization that Palpatine intends for Luke to destroy and replace his father but that is for the audience and it doesn't make sense that Vader would not have previously known of the rule.

[ScorchyScorch]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

I don't consider the prequels cannon though.

Damn straight.

[WhiteTiger]

[underGRADFlame]

Originally Posted by whitetiger

[Fuzz]

That'd be really stupid if Snookie was Vader. Basically throws out the whole redemption theme of ROTJ. Plus he was, like, dead and incinerated. And he required the mask to breath.

[Fuzz]

Also, this is a good idea:

http://adequateman.deadspin.com/rema...aign=tuesdayPM

Remake the prequels. Don't just redo what is there, throw them all out, go back to 4,5 and 6 and make a prequels that agree with them, but aren't tied to any of the crap form the current prequels. I'd be interested in a do-over and what ideas could be done, becuase frankly, the Clone Wars legend sounded way cooler than what we got.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by Hack&Lube

No, which was perfect. There was no weird lore or silly names. Nobody ever says Sith or Padawan or Midiclorians or rule of two in the original trilogy, etc.

The Emperor is just the Emperor. Vader calls him his master and he calls Vader his "friend" in a twisted way. The Sith are never mentioned, only the Dark Side of the force.

The rule of two doesn't even make sense in the context of the original trilogy as Vader clearly bargains to turn Luke and bring him into the fold for the three of them to work together. If the rule of two were true all along, he would know that Palpatine would never allow this and that he would just be laying the seeds for his convenient replacement. In ROTJ we finally get the realization that Palpatine intends for Luke to destroy and replace his father but that is for the audience and it doesn't make sense that Vader would not have previously known of the rule.

Just my two cents, as I'm not really convinced the rule of two has to remain intact, but I do think it was through the 1st 6 movies.

This is always the case with the Sith. Every Master knows it will happen and that's why they try to find an Apprentice stronger than their current one to take them out. Every Apprentice knows this and that's why they try to make themselves powerful enough to overthrow their Master (and usually take an Apprentice for themselves). It's kind of why they destroyed themselves, and why the rule of two is a thing, not because they choose it, but because it's just what happens.

Plageius trains Sidious, Sidious kills Plageius.

Sidious trains Maul, Maul is killed by Jedi.

Sidious trains Dooku, Sidious manipulates Anakin into killing him (I'm assuming Dooku was plotting to kill Sidious somewhere inbetween, haven't got through Clone Wars yet) and Anakin becomes his much more powerful Apprentice.

Sidious trains Vader, rules galaxy. Luke arrives, Sidious sees the one necessary to kill Vader before Vader kills him. Vader sees the one to succeed him after he kills Sidious. Vader sacrifices himself to kill Sidious, returns to the Jedi and all Sith knowledge is lost.

That doesn't mean all Dark Side knowledge is lost, but it would be a long time (or even never) before someone was able to recollect the full knowledge of the Sith.

Originally Posted by WhiteTiger

I really don't like how close that is. As much as I love Vader, him being alive would be worse than anything the prequels did.

[GGG]

In empire Vader pitches to Luke overthrowing the emperor and ruling the galaxy together. The question I recently have is did Darth Vader save Luke out of Love or did he kill the emporer because he tried to get Luke to kill him

[Regulator75]

Snoke is Vader? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa?

[Fuzz]

Clearly it was out of love. Earlier Vader says "it is to late for me". Vader makes the decision to kill the Emperor when he sees Luke suffering while getting shocked. He can't take it, so stops him. Luke has already made it clear at this point he would rather die than join the Emperor so Vader's choice was redemption, or watch his son die.

[Regulator75]

Snoke does look awfully burned...