Had a surprise trip to the theatre to see it for the 3rd time today. I don't think I've weighed in on the movie in this thread yet.
I'm fairly confident that Snoke is NOT Plageius. I feel like the prequel trilogy is so ill thought of by the fans so they want to ignore as much as the can. To actually take a character that was briefly mentioned and flesh him out feels like it goes against what they want to do, which is make Star Wars movies loved by Star Wars fans, not despised.
I feel that Rey is Han and Leia's daughter. My thoughts are that Leia was just pregnant when Han left and Han didn't know. I figure Ben is maybe a few years older, and Rey was 5 or 6 when she was left to hide on Jakkuu. She was to be hidden from the dark side because they didn't want Snoke and Kylo to find her.
I did read an article where they stole the idea from the Legends EU to have Han and Leia's daughter kill her brother, their son. But with how this is playing out, and how TFA is copying the general plot of ANH I think they made Rey a character hidden from the dark side users and the character's destiny was to become discovered and train as a Jedi.
During an interview with Charlie Rose, Star Wars creator George Lucas had a pretty...interesting...way of describing Disney, the studio who bought Lucasfilm from him in 2012.
Saying that a clean break from Star Wars was needed so as not to reopen the wound of giving up the property, Lucas said that "You have to just cut it off and say, 'Okay, end of ballgame. I'm moving on.'"
Comparing the films to his children -- "I loved them, I created them" -- Lucas said that you have to just accept that the "children" are gone, even though your body resists that instinct.
“I sold them to the white slavers that takes these things, and…,” Lucas said, laughing and not finishing the thought.
Really Lucas? STFU, you're starting to sound like a jealous girlfriend. I'm sure the 4 Billion from your slavers made your decision really hard...
Now you're pissed that everyone loves Ep VII and it's just a reminder how much the prequels sucked ass.
Really Lucas? STFU, you're starting to sound like a jealous girlfriend. I'm sure the 4 Billion from your slavers made your decision really hard...
Now you're pissed that everyone loves Ep VII and it's just a reminder how much the prequels sucked ass.
It was a stupid statement but he's old and probably a little grumpy. Let's give the guy a little credit for the first three movies that were pretty ground breaking for their time and without him this thread doesn't even exist.
Honestly I would be a little ticked myself as everyone loves to crap on his prequels while Disney and Abrams are getting positive reviews for essentially remaking Lucas's first installment and adding very little new to the series. By far the best move in the series (Empire Strikes Back) is still a Lucas movie.
Lucas is obviously bitter about losing his baby. I've heard interviews where he doesn't seem as ######y about it.
It seems he's more disappointed that he didn't get to finsih what he started. There are huge flaws in what he did, especially with the prequels, but he obviously had a very detailed and thought out plan for all of this, and regardless of how good it is, it will never be what he wanted. It would be tough to sit through that.
It'd be like watching your own band get back together without you (even though you wanted to be there) and everyone tell you how awesome it is with you gone. Now some other guy is singing your songs. Those are your songs. No matter how nice or talented he is, you're going to hate that guy.
- I think you're clinging to the Rule of Two too much, as I think it is pretty obvious that both sides have the need to evolve and change (the Sith on their rule, and the Jedi on their discipline).
The rule of two is Canon when it comes to the Sith, and out of everything prequel wise it makes the most sense, since Sith are covetous of power and its only logical that a Sith Lord taking on multiple apprentices is going to be betrayed and murdered by both of them. Even in non-canon from video games to books, from both the past and the future, the Sith aren't the anti-jedi where there are a lot of them working in harmony, whenever there have been large groups of Sith they have destroyed themselves.
If you read the Phantom Menace book it takes about why the Sith and Darth Bane went under the rule of two.
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Originally Posted by MattyC
- If Plageuis did end up as a Force ghost, I'm not sure that he would qualify as a Sith under the rule of two, especially if his presence was unknown to other Dark Force users, as it is not a power they are in tune with.
Except that he would be firmly emeshed in the Force as a Dark shadow within it, surely Palpatine would have picked that up since he was again, the embodiment of the Dark Side and its most powerful user, his key power was that he could see the currents of the Force which gave him fore thought.
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Originally Posted by MattyC
- The rules for Dark Force ghost could be different than that of Light Force ghosts (is there any precedent? If not, they could explain it however they want).
In EU there were darkside ghosts, in Canon as explained int he prequel books, the Sith can't become ghosts or become part of the Force because it goes against their nature of holding onto power and life out of greed.
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Originally Posted by MattyC
- Just because Plageuis may have sacrificed himself for the sake of immortality, doesn't mean it was selfless, or needed him to gift his death to Palpatine in any way. Maybe the sacrifice can be seen as him purposely training an apprentice that so desired ultimate power that it was inevitable that he would kill Plageuis. And Plageuis' foresight to this, and to it's strengthening impact on the Sith, made it a sacrifice for the Dark Side. That doesn't mean that he "let" Palpatine kill him, just purposely made him strong enough so that he could.
Sorry, I don't buy that, Sith has to take the crown of Dark Lord of the Sith, its something that wouldn't be gifted like that, and Plageuis would fight it tooth and nail. Where Plageuis failed or showed weakness was that he didn't see the nature of Sidious who waited for Plageuis at his weakest and murdered him. If you read Dark Lord at one point Palpatine mused about this and saw it as a major weakness in terms of vulnerability and trained himself not to sleep.
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Originally Posted by MattyC
Again, I think you're getting bogged down in what has been established as the traditions of each side. They have changed dramatically, even over the course of prequels and the OT. There are so many ways to interpret all the things that are said by each side, that Abrams and Co. can pretty much add whatever lore they want to it, as long as they have feasible reasons for doing so (IE NOT midichlorins). Seeing as the Sith didn't always operate with the Rule of Two, I don't see why they would have to going forward.
There's no indication that its changed, and I would think that Star Wars purists would crap all over it if Abrams rewrote Sith Lore.
At the end of the day in the purist sense, the Sith line died at the end of Return of the Jedi, that's what allowed Anakin to forefill the prophesy. The Sith represented the imbalance in the Force that tipped it towards the darkside. When Sidious died and Vader died, those deaths took all of that Sith knowledge and power with it.
The Plageuis thing is a fan generated theory based on the similarities of the music between the opera house theme and Snoke's theme, and the line that the Supreme Leader is Wise.
When you look at the idea of things outside of the movie.
Kasden in a panel at comic con had no idea who Darth Plagueis was
About 37 minutes in
On top of that they originally tossed around the idea of making Snoke a girl.
Andy Serkas also in an interview stated that Snoke was very much a new character in the universe.
I keep thinking that if they do a reveal in a movie, where Snoke stands up and says "No, I am Darth Plageuis" that the average film going is going to go huh and its going to fall flatter then a fart in church. The Sidious/Palpatine thing worked because you didn't have to devolve into this deep backstory on the villain.
Personally and I've mentioned the story points above, I have my doubts that Snoke is Plageuis, he's the villain in the sense that in the original trilogy the Emperor was the villain but he was there as the foil, not the main villain.
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Yeah CC, obviously all of what you say makes plenty of sense. I don't know anything about Plagueis outside of the Sith conversation and anything brough up here. I just think that:
A) The Sith weren't always with the rule of two. As you said, it was chaos before they brought it in, so there was obviously a time before it. Just because it's canon, doesn't mean the Sith themselves can't make a change to their own dogma.
B) The Jedi have, at least, had rumours of attitude changes. Possibly allowing romantic relationships, the Force Ghost was a new technique developed by Qui Gon (right?), using feelings as a means of maintaining self-control rather than forcing their souls to fight them.
It just seems to me that you are caught up in what's canon like that means they can't use the story to make interesting changes. If we just said "well it's canon so it stays that way" nothing would ever change.
It'd be like if the Prequels were the first movies, and people were all like 'No way Anakin could be a bad guy, he is supposed to bring balance! It's canon!" and then people being mad for him changing. Well, if you interpret the prophecy one way it still makes sense. It's all up to interpretation, and I'm just trying to look at things with a different view to see how they could be otherwise interpreted. The Dark Force Ghost thing, for example, you say that they can't become Ghosts in canon, well who says someone super powerful can't break that rule somehow? Ghosts weren't a Jedi thing either until their very last days.So they say it's not Plagueis, so what? Maybe it's not. Maybe Snoke somehow absorbed Plageuis' power, maybe Plageuis is using him as a host somehow, maybe he has nothing to do with it.
My point is that it's fantasy, and the Force is, quite literally, magic, and thus can be used to explain almost anything. Don't let what happened before limit the possibilities going forward. The only reason we fear these things is because of the midichlorins. It was a stupid idea, and I don't think anyone at Lucasfilm had the balls to tell that to George.
Yeah CC, obviously all of what you say makes plenty of sense. I don't know anything about Plagueis outside of the Sith conversation and anything brough up here. I just think that:
A) The Sith weren't always with the rule of two. As you said, it was chaos before they brought it in, so there was obviously a time before it. Just because it's canon, doesn't mean the Sith themselves can't make a change to their own dogma.
Its not dogma as much as the nature of the dark side of the force and the character of the Sith. They all chase power and view others on the same path as rivals and not um team mates.
The one time they tried it after the collapse of the Sith Empire and the golden age of the sith was in Banes time, and right on the verge of victory the Sith turned on each other to gain ultimate ruling power and the Sith ended up destroying themselves except for one Sith Lord who was Bane.
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Originally Posted by MattyC
B) The Jedi have, at least, had rumours of attitude changes. Possibly allowing romantic relationships, the Force Ghost was a new technique developed by Qui Gon (right?), using feelings as a means of maintaining self-control rather than forcing their souls to fight them.
Suppossedly it was Qui-gon who discovered the secret of becoming one with the force. He then taught Yoda and Obi-wan from beyond. Yoda theorized that the lack of attachment lead to the downfall of the Jedi, he did that during the fight with Sidious, and lead Luke and Leia to being placed with loving families and not trained in the force until the force decided it was time. If Yoda had followed doctrine, Luke and Leia would have probably ended up being raised and trained from birth by Yoda, with help from Ben.
But we don't know if it got far as apparently Luke set up a Jedi Academy which makes me wonder if he went back to the traditional method of raising Jedi younglings and training them early and without their family attachments.
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Originally Posted by MattyC
It just seems to me that you are caught up in what's canon like that means they can't use the story to make interesting changes. If we just said "well it's canon so it stays that way" nothing would ever change.
Perhaps, except that the current canon as much as we hated the prequels when it came to the Sith and the prophesy and the manipulation and power of Palpatine makes sense and that's my biggest objection to bringing Plageuis back, because it makes Palpatine look like a weiner. It also reduces the impact of Anakins seduction and fall, and the final actions of Vader when he destroyed the Sith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MattyC
It'd be like if the Prequels were the first movies, and people were all like 'No way Anakin could be a bad guy, he is supposed to bring balance! It's canon!" and then people being mad for him changing. Well, if you interpret the prophecy one way it still makes sense. It's all up to interpretation, and I'm just trying to look at things with a different view to see how they could be otherwise interpreted. The Dark Force Ghost thing, for example, you say that they can't become Ghosts in canon, well who says someone super powerful can't break that rule somehow? Ghosts weren't a Jedi thing either until their very last days.So they say it's not Plagueis, so what? Maybe it's not. Maybe Snoke somehow absorbed Plageuis' power, maybe Plageuis is using him as a host somehow, maybe he has nothing to do with it.
My point is that it's fantasy, and the Force is, quite literally, magic, and thus can be used to explain almost anything. Don't let what happened before limit the possibilities going forward. The only reason we fear these things is because of the midichlorins. It was a stupid idea, and I don't think anyone at Lucasfilm had the balls to tell that to George.
You're right the force is magic and the new writers are free to interpret the power of the Force and the Sith and Darkside and the Jedi and light side any way that they want. But if you go too far against what's been established in Canon and even without Canon you end up with Midiclorians which you'll notice I haven't talked about once.
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You're right the force is magic and the new writers are free to interpret the power of the Force and the Sith and Darkside and the Jedi and light side any way that they want. But if you go too far against what's been established in Canon and even without Canon you end up with Midiclorians which you'll notice I haven't talked about once.
See, I think the other way, and that the Midichlorins were invented basically to keep canon that Anakin was birthed by the Force. Lucas needed an explanation for it and here we are.
And let's not forget that Lucas invented all this. Pretty much what he makes up is/was canon. You can't pick and choose what you want to take from him if you're going to be that strict about it.
The nature of the Force is whatever Star Wars decides to tell us it is. It's their animal. Keeping yourself pigeonholed into what they have already established may end up with disappointment (see: Midichlorins).
No spoiler... More questions regarding best books
Ok so I saw the original back when the first stars wars released in the 70's & 6 years old. The folks took my brother & I to the drive in with them.
Anyway I've seen all the movies released and this past week my wife & 8 yr old son saw this force awakens with me. Going to the 1st when I was 6-7 & now in my 40's taking my son at 8 was I thought a cool generational experience!
She is now interested in reading any novels related to the original trilogy, prequel & this latest.
What would be the specific books to search for? And would they be actual novels or would they be graphic books?
No spoiler... More questions regarding best books
Ok so I saw the original back when the first stars wars released in the 70's & 6 years old. The folks took my brother & I to the drive in with them.
Anyway I've seen all the movies released and this past week my wife & 8 yr old son saw this force awakens with me. Going to the 1st when I was 6-7 & now in my 40's taking my son at 8 was I thought a cool generational experience!
She is now interested in reading any novels related to the original trilogy, prequel & this latest.
What would be the specific books to search for? And would they be actual novels or would they be graphic books?
TIA.
That's tough because they're not truly Canon anymore.
But my favorites are
The Rise of the Empire Trilogy
Labyrinth of evil Return of the Sith (Excellent book that makes the movie better) Dark Lord the Rise of Darth Vader
Old Republic Era
Darth Bane Path of Destruction, Rule of Two, Dynasty of Evil
Darth Plageuis was a really well written book as well.
Most of the post Return of the Jedi stuff except for the X-Wing series were mainly forgettable
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Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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If you have Netflix, the entire Clone Wars tv series is on there. There's 120+ episodes, so that could take a while to get through. It covers the time period between Episodes 2 & 3 when Anakin is still a Jedi and has his own Padawan.
If you have the Disney XD channel, they're showing Star Wars Rebels, which is a currently on-going series that deals with the origins of the Rebel Alliance and is set about 5 years before Episode 4.
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Even if things are "officially" canon, I feel like they are slowly moving away from certain core ideas and concepts by simply not mentioning and/or ignoring them and that gives you an idea of the direction they are going.
There are no Sith and Midiclorians in The Force Awakens for example. JJ even went out of his way to explain that Kylo Ren is not part of the Sith (and implies that Snoke is not either). I would be very happy if they completely wipe out the prequels and all the Force lore and started over because it has gotten too technical and entrenched in decades of clumsy material the general public doesn't know or care about.
They are moving back toward the cloaked mysticism of the first three films and that works wonderfully in my book. Ren and Snoke are force-sensitive that are simply powerful in the dark side of the force (and the dark side was all that was ever mentioned in the original trilogy). It was always more elegant to me that way and it didn't need to be elaborated on or being branded with a silly name or being codified into rules.
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It was a stupid statement but he's old and probably a little grumpy. Let's give the guy a little credit for the first three movies that were pretty ground breaking for their time and without him this thread doesn't even exist.
Honestly I would be a little ticked myself as everyone loves to crap on his prequels while Disney and Abrams are getting positive reviews for essentially remaking Lucas's first installment and adding very little new to the series. By far the best move in the series (Empire Strikes Back) is still a Lucas movie.
You mean the film that was directed by Irvin Kershner with the screenplay by Leigh Brackett and Lawrence Kasdan?
The major reason Empire is the best Star Wars movie and one of the greatest films of all time is because Lucas stuck to being the Producer and left the direction and writing up to experts who knew what they were doing.
If you have Netflix, the entire Clone Wars tv series is on there. There's 120+ episodes, so that could take a while to get through. It covers the time period between Episodes 2 & 3 when Anakin is still a Jedi and has his own Padawan.
If you have the Disney XD channel, they're showing Star Wars Rebels, which is a currently on-going series that deals with the origins of the Rebel Alliance and is set about 5 years before Episode 4.
Clone Wars is one of the best science fiction series that I've seen on TV and it started light and got darker and darker.
The final of season 5 with Ahsoka on the run was incredibly well done.
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Look on my Works, ye Mighty, and despair!
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Clone Wars is one of the best science fiction series that I've seen on TV and it started light and got darker and darker.
The final of season 5 with Ahsoka on the run was incredibly well done.
I thought this was interesting because wasn't Lucas quite involved in the Clone Wars series, or maybe it was his daughter? They are really quite good and I wonder if they would hold up without the context of the prequels, or if they act as a better prequel than the actual movies did.
