2015/2016 Trade Speculation and Rumors

[Street Pharmacist]

Pat Hickey @zababes1

Trade winds are blowing as Zach Kassian told to hold off on reporting to St. John's IceCaps. #HabsIO

[The Original FFIV]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Pat Hickey @zababes1

Wonder if the injury to Frolik changes our position. Getting Bouma back helps on the lw but wonder if we could have heightened interest with frolik down.

We are an organization that has taken flyers on recovering addicts (mcgrats) and stood by existing players (ferland).

With montreals need for more scoring, could they have interest in hudler? We would be buying kassian as the bottom of the market and could probably get their first back. Something like

Kassian
Montreals 1st

For

Hudler (up to 50% retained)

We keep a rw on the roster for years end and if Kassian performs well, we retain him as a rfa. If he's a bust we let him walk and maybe ask for a conditional pick back if we choose that option.

Everyone views kassian as a power f because of his size but he's more of a playmaker. Would be a low risk high reward project if we do down this path.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Rattie is doing well IMO. Where's this no value thing coming from?

He's almost a PPG in the AHL this year and has 2 points in 5 gp with STL. If anything, he is developing better than Sven as he has been more consistent since being drafted. If the Flames were to get Rattie for the same cost as Sven I say the Flames upgraded.

Sven was actually doing really well for the Canucks in the AHL and I don't put a lot of stock into AHL points as a lot of smaller guys can do well in that league and struggle in the NHL. I don't think any team is going to offer a 2nd round pick for him but then the Flames fetched a 2nd round pick for Berra so who knows?

[memphusk]

Calgary doesn't need anymore bottom 6 wingers. Kassian is a plug, let him go somewhere else.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by memphusk

Calgary doesn't need anymore bottom 6 wingers. Kassian is a plug, let him go somewhere else.

Not only that but I don't think he's a guy you'd want in the AHL if/when things go south. Does not look like he'd be a great influence on the young guys. Might be Benning's one decent trade, classic addition by subtraction.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by memphusk

Calgary doesn't need anymore bottom 6 wingers. Kassian is a plug, let him go somewhere else.

Kassian had a 5 vs 5 points per 60 minutes of 1.87 between Oct 2013 to 2015 (two seasons).

That is more points per minute than 2012-2014 Cammalleri (1.74), Rookie Gaudreau (1.7), 2014-16 Monahan (1.73), Bennett (1.71), 2016 Hudler (1.77).

It is less than 2015 Hudler (2.46), 2016 Frolik (2.44), or 2016 Gaudreau (2.45).

It is about equal to 2014-15 Lance Bouma (1.9) who was our second line left winger and having a miracle single season.

It is significantly more than 2014-15 Backlund (1.46), 2013-16 Jones (1.57) or 2014-16 Colborne (1.53).

Zach Kassian is no plug. He's a big-bodied right-winger with some offensive skill. A top 6 forward.

He has some weaknesses in his game. However even his propensity to pick up some penalties (20 taken) is mostly compensated by his ability to draw them (16).

Now, are his other, personal issues a concern? Sure. But that doesn't make him a bottom 6 plug.

[druetetective]

If you think Zach Kassian is a top 6 forward in the NHL I want some of what your on.

[GranteedEV]

If you think Zack Kassian is a bottom 6 plug, I want some of what you're on.

Not saying he's a flawless player, but neither is a guy like Ryan Johansen. They're both young, flawed players and I don't know if they can ever put it all together but they certainly have the offensive talent and physical tools to not be called bottom 6 plugs.

[druetetective]

Never said he was a plug but he belongs far away from a teams top 6.

Are you familiar with small sample size? He's played less than 500 mins over those 2 years.

Are Baertschi and Ronalds Kenins top 6 too?

[IgiTang]

Kassian plays a game similar to Kreider. Tough along the boards, has a nose for the net, and can finish. When motivated, skates very well for a big guy.

If he was never a Canuck I would bet most of you naysayers would be screaming for him to be picked up.

I mentioned earlier, Ferland could be a huge positive I fluence for him. Also the Flames seem to be a much more supportive organization when it comes to these issues. See the Ferland situation.

It could also help Ferland developed his leadership skills.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by druetetective

Never said he was a plug but he belongs far away from a teams top 6.

Are you familiar with small sample size? He's played less than 500 mins over those 2 years.

So if the sample size is small, what sample size are you basing your firm opinion that he belongs "far away" from a team's top 6? If the sample size if the last two seasons is too small to draw a conclusion on his play the last two seasons. Are you basing it on his play three whole seasons ago?

Also, while Baertschi might not be a star forward, he's definitely a point producer and despite his general inconsistency has produced in just at some point during every NHL stint he's ever had except last season, when Hartley had him playing 8-10 minutes a game with Bollig and Knight. If he had more impactful dimensions to his game he would certainly be a top 6 forward.

Kassian has more dimensions to his game than a Baertschi or Kenins. Guys like Sven, and Mason Raymond can produce points but don't give you much else. Kassian is known for pretty much everything crash-n-bang and yet still gives you offense.

Your concept of a top 6 winger seems to be skewed to thinking "stars only". 2nd liners - guys ranging from Silfverburg to Killorn to Frolik are all top 6 forwards.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

If you think Zack Kassian is a bottom 6 plug, I want some of what you're on.

Not saying he's a flawless player, but neither is a guy like Ryan Johansen. They're both young, flawed players and I don't know if they can ever put it all together but they certainly have the offensive talent and physical tools to not be called bottom 6 plugs.

If Kassian was what you are describing then 29 teams would not have let him go through waivers. He is on the last year of his deal so there is no risk yet 29 GM's decided he wasn't worth it.

Zack Kassian is a bottom 6 plug. If you want some of what we are on sure thing it is called reality

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

If Kassian was what you are describing then 29 teams would not have let him go through waivers. He is on the last year of his deal so there is no risk yet 29 GM's decided he wasn't worth it.

Zack Kassian is a bottom 6 plug. If you want some of what we are on sure thing it is called reality

Are you seriously just using waivers to evaluate a player's ability? Mike Hoffman cleared waivers a couple years back, the same Mike Hoffman on a 45 goal pace right now.

- Personal issues (the guy is a rehabbing alcholic who crashed his car during preseason)
- Health concerns (the guy had a bad back last season)
- Roster Size Limits (we, for example, would have had to demote Granlund to claim him)
- Conditioning (the guy hasn't practiced in months)
- Cap concerns (1.7M cap hit doesn't fit for many teams)

There are factors that went into him going unclaimed, but they don't automatically mean he's worthless. There are costs to waivers that extend beyond "free player"

[Vinny01]

The thing is if he was the player you describe him to be then a team certainly would look past those faults and made a claim. Kassian was also traded with a late pick to get a 30+ career bottom 6 plug in Prust this was before the booze favor was public knowledge.

Kassian is a 25 year old who failed to reach his once high potential. He has size, skill and a mean streak. He is also one of the dumber hockey players out there which contributes to him being a shell of the player Buffalo and Vancouver thought they had.

[druetetective]

Ff you look at every teams 2nd line in the league I am willing to bet the vast majority of the players are better than Kassian.
He's certainly not better than half of them, which would make him an average 2nd liner.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Kassian had a 5 vs 5 points per 60 minutes of 1.87 between Oct 2013 to 2015 (two seasons).

That is more points per minute than 2012-2014 Cammalleri (1.74), Rookie Gaudreau (1.7), 2014-16 Monahan (1.73), Bennett (1.71), 2016 Hudler (1.77).

It is less than 2015 Hudler (2.46), 2016 Frolik (2.44), or 2016 Gaudreau (2.45).

It is about equal to 2014-15 Lance Bouma (1.9) who was our second line left winger and having a miracle single season.

It is significantly more than 2014-15 Backlund (1.46), 2013-16 Jones (1.57) or 2014-16 Colborne (1.53).

Zach Kassian is no plug. He's a big-bodied right-winger with some offensive skill. A top 6 forward.

He has some weaknesses in his game. However even his propensity to pick up some penalties (20 taken) is mostly compensated by his ability to draw them (16).

Now, are his other, personal issues a concern? Sure. But that doesn't make him a bottom 6 plug.

He is a problem that multiple good coaches could not fix.

Unless Flames are taking him to bury the contract somewhere which would mean awesome assets coming back (Montreal's first not being awesome IMO), then why would they do this? There is too much risk. Other people have looked dumb trying to buy him at 'all time low pricing.'

He is years and lots of personal problems away from the talented but dumb player that entered the league.

So the only way I see this working is if the price is super low (not Hudler) and something really good comes back (Tinordi +).

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by druetetective

Ff you look at every teams 2nd line in the league I am willing to bet the vast majority of the players are better than Kassian.

Here are some recently deployed second line winger combos in the league:

Byron-Pacioretty
Nash-Jesper Fast
Ferland-Colborne
Sekac-Silvferburg
Tobias Reider-Boedker
Pouliot-Eberle
Baertschi-Vrbata
Matt Calvert-Atkinson
Jussi Jokinen-Reilly Smith
Grabner-Komarov
Tlusty-Palmieri
Janmark-Nichushkin
McGinn-Reinhart
Perreault-Stafford

Whether you want to call half those guys "secoond liners" or not, the reality is most second lines aren't just a second first line and are usually closer in quality to the third line in terms of wingers, but with a better centreman carrying the load.

Maybe there aren't 60 second line wingers in the league as there aren't 60 first line wingers in the league. But that's besides the point. Kassian produces points. Points are good.

He is a problem that multiple good coaches could not fix.
...He is years and lots of personal problems away from the talented but dumb player that entered the league...

I agree with these comments. But they have nothing to do with him being a bottom 6 plug which is what I was responding to.

[Gaskal]

I really have to question your judgement if you really think Hartley was deploying Ferland-Stajan-Colborne as a '2nd line'.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Gaskal

I really have to question your judgement if you really think Hartley was deploying Ferland-Stajan-Colborne as a '2nd line'.

Ferland-Backlund-Colborne against the Jets.

Our lines were

Gaudreau-Monahan-Hudler
Ferland-Backlund-Colborne
Bennett-Granlund-Raymond
Bouma-Stajan-Jones

Though Frolik would knock Colborne out, and Ferland is not a top 6 forward by production. My point is that you're not normally going to have a second line of Kanes and Panarins and Toffolis and Lucics. Kassian is better than a third liner. He's a top 6 forward. Even if that's not the high praise. A Frolik-Backlund-Kassian line has potential. I'm not even arguing that it's worth the other risks though (Kassian's Healthy, Cap Hit, Attitude, Addiction history, whatver). All I'm arguing is he's no plug and would improve a lot of teams' top 6.

[GoJetsGo]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Kassian produces points. Points are good.

Except he doesn't, because he's not in the league. There are a long list of players who potentially have the talent to be in the NHL, but unless it's realized, it doesn't mean anything.

Having the mental and physical discipline to be an effective every-day NHLer is a huge part of the makeup.

As it is now, Kassian doesn't even possess the intangibles to be a bottom line plug, never-mind a top six talent.

It's really a fruitless discussion at this point.