May 2015 Provincial Election Thread v2

[IliketoPuck]

NDP supporters in this thread:

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

NDP supporters in this thread:

Why would leftists surrender when we obviously have superior numbers on this forum?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Telling the person who just got laid off that "in the long term you'll be better off with a higher minimum wage" doesn't put food on their table next week.

Telling them that this is just a "period of adjustment" doesn't help them pay rent.

Economic theories and fancy rhetoric don't mean a whole hell of a lot to people just trying to get by.

Then provide them with a solid safety net to get by until the adjustment period passes. Running a society isn't all lollipops and sunshine. Sometimes some people have to take it in the teeth for the sake of social progress. That's how utilitarianism works.

Will a higher minimum wage ultimately improve things for marginal workers? Maybe. The results are not clear one way or the other. Which is why the NDP is backtracking. Yet again.

Except the results generally are clear, you just don't want to accept them. The NDP are backtracking because they've completely blown through their political capital and because the current economic climate is (maybe) not conducive to a minimum wage hike.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Then provide them with a solid safety net to get by until the adjustment period passes. Running a society isn't all lollipops and sunshine. Sometimes some people have to take it in the teeth for the sake of social progress. That's how utilitarianism works.



Except the results generally are clear, you just don't want to accept them. The NDP are backtracking because they've completely blown through their political capital and because the current economic climate is (maybe) not conducive to a minimum wage hike.

So many things mixed up here.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Locke

But the point is that you just want to give them more money. Sure, for work, but I've been over this a million times.

Its a strangely capitalist solution to a socialist problem.

"They're not doing well."

"Have you tried throwing money at them?"

It's a capitalist solution to a capitalist society. I mean if we wanted the real socialist solution, we'd be telling the business owners to divide up the profits between themselves and their employees, right?

But then did they not say the very next day that they're not holding off on it?

Could be. I've kind of lost interest in the whole debate so I admit I haven't been following it as closely.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by peter12

So many things mixed up here.

Yeah, I realized afterwards that invoking utilitarianism wasn't quite correct in this particular instance, but left it up because I'm willing to take my lumps.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Then provide them with a solid safety net to get by until the adjustment period passes. Running a society isn't all lollipops and sunshine. Sometimes some people have to take it in the teeth for the sake of social progress. That's how utilitarianism works.



Except the results generally are clear, you just don't want to accept them. The NDP are backtracking because they've completely blown through their political capital and because the current economic climate is (maybe) not conducive to a minimum wage hike.

Providing a safety net = higher government handouts = more taxes. At a time when the economy is getting killed. Brilliant.

There isn't some infinite source of wealth for the NDP to continue taxing to fund their social programs. Once again, economic theory is great. In theory. The real world doesn't operate like a textbook.

Go back and read the comment Chemgear references. Unless my reading comprehension has gone out the window, that's an expert saying that the results of higher minimum wages point in a specific direction. Just not the one that the NDP was hoping for.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by IliketoPuck

Providing a safety net = higher government handouts = more taxes. At a time when the economy is getting killed. Brilliant.

There isn't some infinite source of wealth for the NDP to continue taxing to fund their social programs. Once again, economic theory is great. In theory. The real world doesn't operate like a textbook.

If you're waiting for the perfect conditions to implement any progressive policy, you're going to be waiting forever. Change isn't generally convenient, and usually there are always going to be some casualties.

Go back and read the comment Chemgear references. Unless my reading comprehension has gone out the window, that's an expert saying that the results of higher minimum wages point in a specific direction. Just not the one that the NDP was hoping for.

Yep, it's a good comment, although there isn't the consensus on the topic that the dude seems to suggest there is.

[Cowboy89]

Originally Posted by rubecube

As with most things, climate change, drug policy, etc., I tend to put my trust in the opinions of the experts, so that's why I ultimately believe the net effect will be mostly neutral. I also think the fact that they're planning on holding off on it proves they're not being exceptionally rash about. Making it a part of their platform demonstrated their principles, and revising the roll-out demonstrates a measure of pragmatism.

So is the professor with the PHD who shut everyone down in the comment section of the Parkland article an expert in your eyes? Or is his opinion tainted because he's a business professor and/or an actual economist and we should ignore him and defer opinions on economic matters to the department of sociology and union paid economists from unifor?

[rubecube]

I should also add that I'm not necessarily in favour of raising the minimum wage, but I do agree with the general principle that people who work 40 hours a week should be able to support themselves with minimal government assistance.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Cowboy89

So is the professor with the PHD who shut everyone down in the comment section of the Parkland article an expert in your eyes? Or is his opinion tainted because he's a business professor and/or an actual economist and we should ignore him and defer opinions on economic matters to the department of sociology and union paid economists from unifor?

Honestly, I've been down this road before where I and others post academic articles from several other notable economists on the matter and people generally ignore or don't read them, so I'm not going to waste my time tracking them down and posting them again.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I also think the fact that they're planning on holding off on it proves they're not being exceptionally rash about. Making it a part of their platform demonstrated their principles, and revising the roll-out demonstrates a measure of pragmatism.

They're not holding off, it's full steam ahead.

NDP government says it's not backtracking on minimum wage

Notley’s spokeswoman Cheryl Oates said Thursday the government “is moving forward with our election commitment to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2018.”

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by chemgear

They're not holding off, it's full steam ahead.

NDP government says it's not backtracking on minimum wage

Notley’s spokeswoman Cheryl Oates said Thursday the government “is moving forward with our election commitment to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2018.”

Okay, I was going off of what someone else had posted. My gut tells me it's a bad idea.

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Okay, I was going off of what someone else had posted. My gut tells me it's a bad idea.

Yeah, that might have been me. I had posted the earlier article saying that it was just a "notional target" yesterday but the NDP were pretty quick and clear about clarifying it. I put up a new post with the updated article today.

They're going to push it through regardless of the economic situation or feedback. Which, given their track record is at least consistent I guess.

[polak]

Originally Posted by chemgear

They're not holding off, it's full steam ahead.

NDP government says it's not backtracking on minimum wage

Notley’s spokeswoman Cheryl Oates said Thursday the government “is moving forward with our election commitment to raise the minimum wage to $15 an hour by 2018.”

This is dumb.

[para transit fellow]

in today's news:
Premier says $15-an-hour minimum wage a 'notional' target, suggests it may not proceed due to economy
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...due-to-economy

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by polak

This is dumb.

[IliketoPuck]

Originally Posted by chemgear

Yeah, that might have been me. I had posted the earlier article saying that it was just a "notional target" yesterday but the NDP were pretty quick and clear about clarifying it. I put up a new post with the updated article today.

They're going to push it through regardless of the economic situation or feedback. Which, given their track record is at least consistent I guess.

I eagerly await the revision of the target date from 2018 to 2019 or 2020. Much like their balanced budget revision(s).

[chemgear]

Originally Posted by para transit fellow

in today's news:
Premier says $15-an-hour minimum wage a 'notional' target, suggests it may not proceed due to economy
http://calgaryherald.com/news/local-...due-to-economy

LOL, you did the same thing. The NDP have already clarified and that they are going ahead. Here is the updated Calgary Herald article:

http://calgaryherald.com/news/politi..._lsa=dc1b-e074

[Resolute 14]

So, basically:

No increase in 2016

No increase in 2017

Huge increase in 2018

That wont be disastrous at all.