The New American Politics thread

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

On a literal by the book comparison, you really shouldn't (however, I will say that the New Testament is relatively tame, the Old Testament is garbage imo). I think where the issue comes is that Islam, from the mouths of muslim friends, treats itself as the solution to everything. Not just the religious aspect, but financial and political. It also claims it is the last and final word, which obviously leads to the infidel issue. I think equal contempt for the fundamentalists on both sides is reasonable, it's just that the violence count is so stacked towards one side that it's a little disingenuous.

Islam needs it's Age of Enlightenment and for that to even start it needs honest self reflection and an acceptance that its ideas are not infallible.

Didn't Islam sort of have its Age of Enlightenment until the Christians showed up during the Crusades?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I don't think its a need for more or less contempt (they are both ridiculous), but maybe more focus. The natural argument would be that fundamentalist muslims are committing a lot more violent acts of terror in the world at the moment. I think people are genuinely wondering whats at the root of it.

I should add that having 2-3 U.S. Presidents in the last 35 years, who were evangelicals and firmly believed in the whole Holy War/Armageddon/return of Christ thing consistently destabilizing the region probably hasn't helped matters.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Didn't Islam sort of have its Age of Enlightenment until the Christians showed up during the Crusades?

Islam had a golden age, but even the berber raiders of the Almohad came to Andalucia they destroyed the cultural treasures of the Almoravid Caliphate because it was decadent. It didn't stick, and we can stop blaming "crusaders". Morocco was pretty far from the Crusades.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by nik-

Islam had a golden age, but even the berber raiders of the Almohad came to Andalucia they destroyed the cultural treasures of the Almoravid Caliphate because it was decadent. It didn't stick, and we can stop blaming "crusaders". Morocco was pretty far from the Crusades.

Okay, thanks. I try not to wade too much into the historical discussion because my knowledge is fairly limited to the 20th century and some of the history of the Ottoman Empire.

[Thor]

I just still can't get over the fear and reaction to these rare occurrences of terrorism. Put it all in perspective and live your lives without fear, the odds of being hurt in a terrorist act are so incredibly low yet people want to elect bigots and fear mongers, pass laws to restrict more freedoms, and a whole parade of over reactions.

[blueski]

Trump/Mel Gibson 2017

[Harry Lime]

In 1219 the cultural and learning centre of Islam was Khwarezm, with the capital city of Bukhara having one of antiquity's great libraries, including the work of Islam's greatest scientist, Ibn Sina. It was at this time that the Sultan Muhammad decided to insult and attack a guy going by the name of Genghis Khan.

Khan turned out to not care much for the cultural and scientific advancement of Islam, and killed and razed pretty much the entire country. This is the modern equivalent of one day waking up and, "Crap, the internet is gone forever.". There were still a lot of enlightened people wandering about, but the first major blow to the entwining of religious and scientific beliefs.

Khwarezm is pretty much a wasteland to this day.

And Trump/Gibson would never win, but Gibson/Trump would be a force to be reckoned with.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

I was on another site and a poster there wrote the following:

I am too young to remember much of anything from Reagan's presidency, but from what I have seen, the Republican party's core principles seem to be some combination of:

Christian theocracy represents real America
War. In general, and as one of the few purposes of government.
Racism
Homophobia
Enriching the wealthy
Wilderness areas are great places to develop/drill/log
Compromise is a sin
So are taxes, unless levied to pay for war
Fetuses are sacred and contraception is evil, but if you have kids you can't afford, lol good luck

I'm trying, and as a 31 year old, I can't think of a single Republican policy or position in my lifetime that has made the world a better place. Most explicitly do the opposite, actually. Their members aren't open to discussion or debate because they make up their own "facts", disregard reality entirely, and cannot fathom nuance. And their leaders are this bunch of demagogues who celebrate bigots, mock the disadvantaged, and openly desire to ruin the government.

It's not even worth having the debate. All I can do is vote against them every two years.

Pretty much sums it up.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I take issue with people pulling the "islam isn't a race" argument in order to mask genuine racism.

How many people who are in favor of Trump's ridiculous ban on muslim's would probably just view it as an opportunity to ostracize brown people generally? I think you would have to admit that at least some, if not many would. That is the typical caricature view of a "muslim" by a racist or bigot anyways. They can't differentiate between a muslim, sikh, hindu, or even a christian arab. Do you think Trumps bigoted supporters would even make the slightest attempt to make a distinction? Or that they even care about criticizing the ideas in islam without vilifying entire ethnicities?

I'm all for calling out the "regressive left" where they fall short on criticism of islam, but to deny that racism plays a role in the conversation as well is ignorant. Yes, in theory you should be able to criticize Islam without assigning a viewpoint on anyone of any particular race or ethnicity. The problem is, actual racists don't do that, and even non racists probably view mulsims primarily as brown skinned, Arabic people. So you need people playing the racism card too -- it genuinely exists in some cases.

it's not a card, islam isn't a race - that is just a fact

Trump's ill advised solution is just stereotyping an entire religious group who consist of all colours because of the actions of a few and the beliefs of even more. ..there is actually a reason for his line of thinking other than banning them just because of their religion or race. This is reality and void of speculation - I don't disagree with your line of thinking, but it is still based on assumption and speculation and not fact.

[T@T]

Originally Posted by Igottago

I take issue with people pulling the "islam isn't a race" argument in order to mask genuine racism.

I must be one of the biggest racist on the planet because I hate all religions.

BTW, one of my best friends is a brown skinned atheist born in Lebanon, he particularly hates Islam. he says it's because of it's ideological beliefs and terrorism...is he a racist?

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by T@T

I must be one of the biggest racist on the planet because I hate all religions.

BTW, one of my best friends is a brown skinned atheist born in Lebanon, he particularly hates Islam. he says it's because of it's ideological beliefs and terrorism...is he a racist?

You are racist due to your white privilege !
Your friend isn't due to his lack of white privilege

cause it's 2015

[Red Slinger]

Originally Posted by T@T

I must be one of the biggest racist on the planet because I hate all religions.

BTW, one of my best friends is a brown skinned atheist born in Lebanon, he particularly hates Islam. he says it's because of it's ideological beliefs and terrorism...is he a racist?

Racism, when boiled down to it's foundation, is really just hatred of a particular ethnic group based on generalizations, stereotypes and ignorance.

You may or may not be a racist but the fact that you "hate" a group of anyone isn't much different. You are still doing the same things that racists do but your justification is different. Ironically, this is what a lot of low-information voters rely on also. Those that support Trump, for instance, are generally white working-class males without much education. Their viewpoints don't come from a rational perspective but rather one based on emotional dog-whistle type of responses. It's hard to see how what you're doing is much different.

[DuffMan]

I'm justing watching SNL and an observation is Trump is not a gun toting racist xtian, but his voters are. Good point.

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by T@T

I must be one of the biggest racist on the planet because I hate all religions.

BTW, one of my best friends is a brown skinned atheist born in Lebanon, he particularly hates Islam. he says it's because of it's ideological beliefs and terrorism...is he a racist?

Its like you didn't even read my post or are only capable of seeing issues in black and white.

I'm not suggesting criticism of islam is racist. I am suggesting that genuine racists will latch onto criticism of islam as an opportunity to express their bigotry against minorities (generally brown skinned or arab looking people). Its not that hard to understand.

To further illustrate my point, your friend could be a victim of hate as a result of the anti-muslim sentiment being drummed up, regardless of how he actually feels about the religion.

[2Stonedbirds]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

I'm justing watching SNL and an observation is Trump is not a gun toting racist xtian, but his voters are. Good point.

Trump has his CCP.

SNL should just stick to comedy. But I guess when you have not been funny for 15 years you gotta change it up.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by 2Stonedbirds

Trump has his CCP.

SNL should just stick to comedy. But I guess when you have not been funny for 15 years you gotta change it up.

What subjects should they cover as they "stick to comedy"?

They've been doing political comedy for 40 years. They haven't changed it up to go after Trump.

[Nobama]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

I was on another site and a poster there wrote the following:



Pretty much sums it up.

Good thing the democrats are perfect and none of those things listed.

Remember what Hitlery said after people died under her in Benghazi "what does it matter anyway?"

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Nobama

Hitlery

Ha ha ha. Awesome.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by Nobama

Good thing the democrats are perfect and none of those things listed.

Remember what Hitlery said after people died under her in Benghazi "what does it matter anyway?"

They aren't perfect, not even close. I never said they were either.

However, compared to the league of psychopaths, they at least look like a somewhat viable alternative. Lesser of two evils and all that.

If I was an American, I would hold my nose and vote for the dems. It doesn't mean I'm a Democrat at heart.

[jayswin]

Ahahaha, Hitlery. After all the dumb satire names for politicians, that one genuinely caught me off guard and made me laugh. Awesome.