2015-2016 Blue Jays Off-Season Thread

[TheAlpineOracle]

On a side note, Jays increased the price of their tickets next year by 10%. Must be to help them pay for all their offseason additions they've made...........

[nik-]

I'm ok with the Price non signing really. When you put out that kind of money, he better be an assassin in the playoffs and Price just isn't. He wasn't here and he wasn't in Tampa. Yes, you need to get there and need an ace to do it, but I just don't feel Price is the guy ... I still would have rather had Darvish, or Greinke.

That being said, #### Boston.

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by cross16

I agree that IMO the Price contract is ridiculous. What I meant was based on the market it was not a ridiculous contract, its in the ballpark of what the market dictates based on the Scherzer deal.

They weren't intersted in signing Price at what his market value was. I don't think it was a case of we don't want David Price, it was we don't want David Price at 30 million dollars a year over a 5-7 year deal. I know if you add up Estrade and Happ you get close to the 30 million they maybe could ahve got Price for, but what happen in 3 years from now when you have Price, Tulo, Donaldson and Martin and combine you are probably paying them 90 Million. That's just not a good business model to build a contending team IMO, too much money tied up in so few guys.

It really depends on what kind of goals Jays want. Take a chance with average pitching while your bats are perfectly setup to win now. Or do they go for it all. As mentioned before, the Jays has to win now, hence, all those additions of Tulo, Price, Dickey etc by trading away prospects is to win asap while EE and Bautista are still with the Jays and not too old yet. Just like the Marlins from yester years. AFter winning the World Series twice, they had to disband each time.

If they are only interested in over paying for average players ie. Happ then we will get average pitching. I don't really get it. They are not pursueing any ace or 2nd starter in the rotation out there. So all that work by AA is wasted, really. Go big or go home.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

How do we know that the sales tag on Price would have gotten to the ridiculous Boston number if AA had have been allowed to make an offer to Price back in early November? I'm sure the guy was going to get 25-30 M a year regardless, but the extra years Boston tacked on to entice him to sign there may not have been necessary if a deal has been negotiated. It was reported a week before he signed that Boston wasn't one of his first choices.

The fact of the matter is, Price wanted to be back in Toronto and Toronto had a exclusive window to come to a agreement with him before silly season started. The fact that they didn't even discuss anything with his agent is pretty brutal and damning towards the way Jays management/ownership operate.

Max Scherzer got $200 million last off-season. David Price is better than Scherzer (or at least he's got a longer track record of being an ace). Everyone in the world knew teams like the Red Sox, Dodgers, Cardinals and Cubs were going to take a serious run at Price.

So explain to me why this exclusive signing window would somehow cause David Price to not explore free agency and take $150 million from the Jays. Reading the above facts, it was pretty evident that an offer of $200+ million was realistic. That was something the Jays were never going to touch.

The fact that you are talking 25-30m per year means you just don't get it. Baseball contracts are all about the total dollar figure. The Jays may have been able to offer 31mil/year for 5 years. Guess what - that's $62 million less than what the Red Sox offered. Pitchers can't rely on getting another big money deal at age 35. Price was always going to maximize his total contract value and the number of years was basically irrelevant.

And please quit making stuff up about the negotiations. All that we know is that Price's agent said the Jays didn't make an offer (which, alone, can mean a wide variety of things). You've taken that and molded it into "they never even discussed anything". There's a massive difference between not even seeing what Price was looking for and not tendering a formal offer.

[SuperMatt18]

Yeah I am guessing this occurred.

Jays: "What are we looking at here in terms of a contract?"

Price's agent: "Our starting point is 7 years, $225 million"

Jays: Look at offer they are comfortable with, "That's great, have a good day".

Lets not forget that this is a guy that the Jay coaching staff (and some of the fan base) had lost some faith in during the playoffs. Sure they all said all the right things, but when it was said and done they had more faith in Stroman than they did in Price.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Are you assuming this is the case or do you having any sources or evidence to back it up? I highly doubt the MLBPA, or any players for that matter, would care if Price signed for 7 year 200m to go where he wanted and left 7 year 217m on the table.

I'm assuming you must have a link or something to back up your personal attack.

You think the MLBPA wouldn't care that Price would leave 8% on the table? Keep in mind, that we are probably talking more like 30% if Price was to somehow sign with the Jays.

Here are some links for hockey, but it's pretty obvious that the MLBPA is the same:
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/D...-Comments.aspx
http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2013/...n-negotiations

It's baffling that you would even argue this. Do you think a guy like Price wouldn't have a reaction is Scherzer decided to stay in Detroit for $150mil last year?

The player's association basically exists to maximize players earnings. You don't think they'd have an issue when the guys making the biggest contracts don't do that? Obviously they don't have any recourse they could take against guys that don't, but the pressure of doing your duty for future players certainly has an impact.

[cross16]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

As has been mentioned multiple times in this thread, Rogers is a very large multinational corporation and would be hedged om multiple fronts against any foreign currency fluctuations. The exchange rate is a mute point in tbe short term.

That said, the share of the playoff Revenue The Jays got from MLB was in USD.

To fully offset the drop in the dollar to this degree and futher pain to come? I would find it doubtfull they were hedged to that degree, enough to soften to blow and allow them to keep going as a top 10 payroll but not even to fully offset.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

Yeah I am guessing this occurred.

Jays: "What are we looking at here in terms of a contract?"

Price's agent: "Our starting point is 7 years, $225 million"

Jays: Look at offer they are comfortable with, "That's great, have a good day".

Lets not forget that this is a guy that the Jay coaching staff (and some of the fan base) had lost some faith in during the playoffs. Sure they all said all the right things, but when it was said and done they had more faith in Stroman than they did in Price.

Fine by me they decided not to sign Price. Not fine by me that they haven't looked elsewhere or done a goddamn thing to address their bullpen issue. There's one thing to argue Price was asking way too much and that there's better ways of using that money to improve, and then there's not offering on your ace pitcher who wants to resign and doing absolutely nothing to fill other holes with at least some of the money you didn't spend on resigning him.

[howard_the_duck]

It's December...we're months away from Spring training! There will be some bargain deals to be had with relievers, it's just a matter of patience. Ryan Madson, owner of a huge payday this offseason, was signed to a minor league deal with the Royals last year. The Jays will be after similar types of contracts leading up to Spring Training, and IMO this is the right approach.

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by JayP

You think the MLBPA wouldn't care that Price would leave 8% on the table? Keep in mind, that we are probably talking more like 30% if Price was to somehow sign with the Jays.

Here are some links for hockey, but it's pretty obvious that the MLBPA is the same:
http://www.sportsbusinessdaily.com/D...-Comments.aspx
http://www.blueshirtbanter.com/2013/...n-negotiations

It's baffling that you would even argue this. Do you think a guy like Price wouldn't have a reaction is Scherzer decided to stay in Detroit for $150mil last year?

The player's association basically exists to maximize players earnings. You don't think they'd have an issue when the guys making the biggest contracts don't do that? Obviously they don't have any recourse they could take against guys that don't, but the pressure of doing your duty for future players certainly has an impact.

MLBPA really worries about if owners are trying to reduce an existing contract ex. (A-Rod trade was nixed by MLBPA to the Red Sox for paycut) and other issues such as collusions. I have never heard or read anything that is reliable that MLBPA would "force" players to sign for top dollars or else. Imagine the firestorm it would cause and MLBPA does not need that.

What Fire of the Phoenix and AlpineOracle are discussing is to sign for a team you enjoy playing for and sign for a discount BEFORE hitting free agency. There's supposedly excellent players avoiding free agency altogether by signing with their current club.There are players that would sign before going into free agency with their hometown team without protracted outrageous (competitive) bids. The Jays obviously wants to spend their money else where instead of making an offer before hitting free agency.

MLBPA cannot "pressure" any player to sign for the highest contract with a team they are not happy to play for; they do not have that authority. These players have the right to sign any new contract even if it was for less money as long there is no pay cut to existing contracts. Some would sign for a discount just to have security and or remain with their fav team. MLBPA worries about other issues such as paycuts, misrepresentations and collusions. This is not one of them.

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/texa...highest-bidder

[Jason14h]

Can we please stop talking about the hedging on contracts.

When the Jays signed Martin last season, they would have hedged (Or probably just purchased USD since they have the liquidity) to cover THAT contract.

It has zero to do with the fact the dollar has tanked and they would have been paying price 40 million CDN a year.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by VERVE

MLBPA really worries about if owners are trying to reduce an existing contract ex. (A-Rod trade was nixed by MLBPA to the Red Sox for paycut) and other issues such as collusions. I have never heard or read anything that is reliable that MLBPA would "force" players to sign for top dollars or else. Imagine the firestorm it would cause and MLBPA does not need that.

MLBPA cannot "pressure" any player to sign for the highest contract with a team they are not happy to play for; they do not have that authority. These players have the right to sign any new contract even if it was for less money as long there is no pay cut to existing contracts. Some would sign for a discount just to have security and or remain with their fav team. MLBPA worries about other issues such as paycuts, misrepresentations and collusions. This is not one of them.

http://sportsday.dallasnews.com/texa...highest-bidder

You do realize that the article you posted shows exactly the type of pressure I was referring to. It is obvious that the PA of these leagues isn't holding a gun to these guys heads and threatening to blackball them if they sign with the highest bidder. It's a lot more subtle than that.

That short article alone contains four references and three quotes related to Hamilton's contract affecting other players around the league. You can't honestly expect the PA to make a statement to the media like "our stance is that hometown deals are unacceptable and it's a slap in the face to every other player around the league". You have to read between the lines - these are carefully crafted statements for public consumption. The entire article was apparently about how the union is fine with Hamilton signing wherever he wants yet all the quotes talk about how it will impact other contracts. They were eerily similar to the ones in the articles I posted:

"When you're a star player negotiating a contract there's serious pressure that comes with it. While fans, friends, and family certainly count for something, the real pressure comes from the union. It's a pressure of leverage not to undervalue yourself and to make sure you're doing your part to set the bar for the next player down the line."

No one is calling Price three times a day reminding him that he has to take the highest offer or else. It's a more effective type of pressure where there's clearly a culture with-in the MLBPA that other players have made sacrifices for you in the past so now it's your turn to help out the next wave of players. For David Price, that's friends like Marcus Stroman and Chris Archer. You don't think that has any impact of his decision?

What Fire of the Phoenix and AlpineOracle are discussing is to sign for a team you enjoy playing for and sign for a discount BEFORE hitting free agency. There's supposedly excellent players avoiding free agency altogether by signing with their current club.There are players that would sign before going into free agency with their hometown team without protracted outrageous (competitive) bids. The Jays obviously wants to spend their money else where instead of making an offer before hitting free agency.

First off, who are these players taking hometown discounts one week before free agency?

I'd like to see some examples because I'm sure they don't exist because it's completely illogical from a player's standpoint. Like I said above, David Price and his agent saw Max Scherzer get $200 million one year ago. Any negotiation with the Jays would've had this total in mind because it was very realistic to project he would get those kinds of offers when free agency began. Why wouldn't he just wait a week and see what happens?

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by JayP

You do realize that the article you posted shows exactly the type of pressure I was referring to. It is obvious that the PA of these leagues isn't holding a gun to these guys heads and threatening to blackball them if they sign with the highest bidder. It's a lot more subtle than that.

That short article alone contains four references and three quotes related to Hamilton's contract affecting other players around the league. You can't honestly expect the PA to make a statement to the media like "our stance is that hometown deals are unacceptable and it's a slap in the face to every other player around the league". You have to read between the lines - these are carefully crafted statements for public consumption. The entire article was apparently about how the union is fine with Hamilton signing wherever he wants yet all the quotes talk about how it will impact other contracts. They were eerily similar to the ones in the articles I posted:

"When you're a star player negotiating a contract there's serious pressure that comes with it. While fans, friends, and family certainly count for something, the real pressure comes from the union. It's a pressure of leverage not to undervalue yourself and to make sure you're doing your part to set the bar for the next player down the line."

No one is calling Price three times a day reminding him that he has to take the highest offer or else. It's a more effective type of pressure where there's clearly a culture with-in the MLBPA that other players have made sacrifices for you in the past so now it's your turn to help out the next wave of players. For David Price, that's friends like Marcus Stroman and Chris Archer. You don't think that has any impact of his decision?



First off, who are these players taking hometown discounts one week before free agency?

I'd like to see some examples because I'm sure they don't exist because it's completely illogical from a player's standpoint. Like I said above, David Price and his agent saw Max Scherzer get $200 million one year ago. Any negotiation with the Jays would've had this total in mind because it was very realistic to project he would get those kinds of offers when free agency began. Why wouldn't he just wait a week and see what happens?

The article essentially states as long as the player is well-informed of the contract and all its tangibles, there is no pressure from MLBPA and the player can sign with whomever. ANother case of this is Cliff Lee signing for less than market. The big point here the players are within their rights to sign a new contract despite salary. The MLBPA do not have any influence or authority to dictate otherwise.

Some examples of players from 2015 (there are others from years before) signing with their current before hitting free agency:
Estrada-blue Jays
Anderson-Dodgers
Cahill-Cubs
O'Day-Orioles
Rasmus-Astros
Utley-Dodgers
Wieters-Orioles
Young-Royals

[JayP]

Originally Posted by VERVE

The article essentially states as long as the player is well-informed of the contract and all its tangibles, there is no pressure from MLBPA and the player can sign with whomever. ANother case of this is Cliff Lee signing for less than market. The big point here the players are within their rights to sign a new contract despite salary. The MLBPA do not have any influence or authority to dictate otherwise.

I don't think you understand. Yes, in the end the player can do what they want. That's obvious. As I've said, there's no recourse from the MLBPA. That's a very different thing from applying pressure to the players that undervaluing yourself will have an impact on your peer's contract negotiations and that players before them have made sacrifices that are putting them in this situation. Sure, the players can ignore that and sign whatever they want, but do you honestly think most guys are just shrugging that off?

And like I said, the article headline states one thing, but everytime the union leader gets quoted he keeps going back to "but understand that this is going to have an impact on other guys". When someone makes a statement and always follows it up with a "but" clarification, usually it's the clarification that's important.

Some examples of players from 2015 (there are others from years before) signing with their current before hitting free agency:
Estrada-blue Jays
Anderson-Dodgers
Cahill-Cubs
O'Day-Orioles
Rasmus-Astros
Utley-Dodgers
Wieters-Orioles
Young-Royals

Well, for starters, we are talking about David Price, not average or fringe players.

Second, several of these are players (Wieters, Rasmus) accepting qualifying offers which is completely different since it isn't a contract negotiation.

Third, most of these players had draft pick compensation attached to them which does have a impact on their value.

But most importantly of all, which of these players took a hometown discount? That was the point at hand. Obviously, players do sign contracts before their free agency begins - no one is disputing that. But the point you and others are claiming is that players take hometown deals before free agency begins because it's the only offer on the table. None of these deals have anything to do with that.

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by JayP

I don't think you understand. Yes, in the end the player can do what they want. That's obvious. As I've said, there's no recourse from the MLBPA. That's a very different thing from applying pressure to the players that undervaluing yourself will have an impact on your peer's contract negotiations and that players before them have made sacrifices that are putting them in this situation. Sure, the players can ignore that and sign whatever they want, but do you honestly think most guys are just shrugging that off?

And like I said, the article headline states one thing, but everytime the union leader gets quoted he keeps going back to "but understand that this is going to have an impact on other guys". When someone makes a statement and always follows it up with a "but" clarification, usually it's the clarification that's important.



Well, for starters, we are talking about David Price, not average or fringe players.

Second, several of these are players (Wieters, Rasmus) accepting qualifying offers which is completely different since it isn't a contract negotiation.

Third, most of these players had draft pick compensation attached to them which does have a impact on their value.

But most importantly of all, which of these players took a hometown discount? That was the point at hand. Obviously, players do sign contracts before their free agency begins - no one is disputing that. But the point you and others are claiming is that players take hometown deals before free agency begins because it's the only offer on the table. None of these deals have anything to do with that.

I understand completely. You are arguing that players will get subtle "looks" from MLBPA if they sign for less. Who really knows if players really pay attention to those innuendos. Most of them may shrug it off. We do not have any evidence they have to tow the company line. I am arguing the MLBPA main issues of concern are a lot different than what you stated. Again, they are more concern about such things as players taking pay cuts on existing contracts, misrepresentations and collusions by owners and not at a player who is willing to sign for less than the current market value if he so chooses. I gave the example of Cliff Lee leaving 30 million $ on the table to sign with the Phillies and not the Yankees.

The examples I gave you were people signing with their current teams before hitting free agency. Who knows what the market values at status quo were for each player. Correct me if I am wrong but any team may choose to avoiding qualifying offers and proceed to contract negotiations before free agency. Estrada signed for less than the qualifying offer (per year) but received security instead (and he wanted to stay in Toronto). Price was exempt from a qualifying offer because of late trade but he could have signed here for less but no one will know for sure ‘cause no offer was given.

[JayP]

Originally Posted by VERVE

The examples I gave you were people signing with their current teams before hitting free agency. Who knows what the market values at status quo were for each player. Correct me if I am wrong but any team may choose to avoiding qualifying offers and proceed to contract negotiations before free agency. Estrada signed for less than the qualifying offer (per year) but received security instead (and he wanted to stay in Toronto). Price was exempt from a qualifying offer because of late trade but he could have signed here for less but no one will know for sure ‘cause no offer was given.

The examples you were supposed to give were people signing with their current teams at a hometown discount before free agency. That was the point you trying to make. Estrada signing a fair market deal before he reached the open market offers nothing to this conversation. You brought up Cliff Lee, but he wasn't a Philly before he signed so he's not a guy who re-signed before free agency. And quick research shows he left $18 million on the table ($138m vs. $120m). That's a far cry from the $70+ million you are suggested Price might have considered leaving on the table.

Who knows what anyone would've exactly got on the open market, but when a guy signs for at least 30-50% less than their market value (like Price would be to stick with the Jays) you can tell pretty easily. Since you clearly don't have any evidence of this ever happening, why would David Price be any different?

And, again, the lack of a formal offer doesn't mean the Jays never bothered to talk to Price's people. I don't understand why that is such a hard point to grasp. As someone already said, if Price's agent says they are looking for $200+ million and the Jays are willing to offer $120 million at most, what is the point on continuing the conversation? Do you go to the car dealership and offer them half the MRSP just to see what happens?

[JayP]

Lots of chatter on Twitter (especially Mike Wilner) that the Jays aren't hedged at all from exchange rate volatility. So can we end the crap about how cheap Rogers is? To have basically the same payroll as last opening day with the dollar dipping about 15 cents since this time last year is a pretty serious reinvestment of last year's profits.

Shapiro even confirmed that the Jays budget for future years isn't set in advance - its all based on the volatility of the dollar and yearly revenue.

[VERVE]

Originally Posted by JayP

The examples you were supposed to give were people signing with their current teams at a hometown discount before free agency. That was the point you trying to make. Estrada signing a fair market deal before he reached the open market offers nothing to this conversation. You brought up Cliff Lee, but he wasn't a Philly before he signed so he's not a guy who re-signed before free agency. And quick research shows he left $18 million on the table ($138m vs. $120m). That's a far cry from the $70+ million you are suggested Price might have considered leaving on the table.

Who knows what anyone would've exactly got on the open market, but when a guy signs for at least 30-50% less than their market value (like Price would be to stick with the Jays) you can tell pretty easily. Since you clearly don't have any evidence of this ever happening, why would David Price be any different?

And, again, the lack of a formal offer doesn't mean the Jays never bothered to talk to Price's people. I don't understand why that is such a hard point to grasp. As someone already said, if Price's agent says they are looking for $200+ million and the Jays are willing to offer $120 million at most, what is the point on continuing the conversation? Do you go to the car dealership and offer them half the MRSP just to see what happens?

I go to the car dealership and make an offer that is not ridiculouly low but present a respectable value. At least you make an offer (if you really want that car). By offering Price 25-28MM to start negotiation is not 1/2 of of the MSRP. Price signed for about 30-31 MM.

Regarding Cliff Lee:
"Cliff Lee signs a $120 million contract with the Phillies...The Yankees offered Lee a six-year, $138 million contract with a vesting option that increased the value to $154 million, according to ESPN.com...." By Todd Zolecki/MLB.com |

The Cliff Lee was an example of signing for less (supposedly going against the grain of the MLBPA which is a no no as you have indicated). It was not an example of a home town discount which I have explained twice in past posts.

I never suggested that Price left 70+ million on table (again you missed the point). My point was they start somewhere with a number 25MM-28MM and negotiate from there on. Maybe Price would have signed for less, who knows, do you know for certain he would not give a home town discount to sign. Price's agent clearly stated there was "not a formal offer presented at all"...I am no Kreskin majoring in english lit but that means no formal offer was given- nada...It is foolish to guess otherwise. You have to go by the facts given by Price's agent rather than guessing that there must be some sort of offer presented. I have not heard the Jays denying it, have you?

I think we have beaten this dead horse too many times. Let's agree to disagree.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by JayP

Lots of chatter on Twitter (especially Mike Wilner) that the Jays aren't hedged at all from exchange rate volatility. So can we end the crap about how cheap Rogers is? To have basically the same payroll as last opening day with the dollar dipping about 15 cents since this time last year is a pretty serious reinvestment of last year's profits.

Shapiro even confirmed that the Jays budget for future years isn't set in advance - its all based on the volatility of the dollar and yearly revenue.

Finally! Again, not a Rogers sympathizer but it was a little obvious that the dollar this extreme plays a huge part. Anyone can say all they want that they hedged last year, but tell me which forecasting department could've seen this type of dollar decline, last year? No company would've hedged this much, I don't care what any article said before. I guess to some degree Rogers has ponied up some cash to keep this going (somewhat).

[Pagal4321]

My question to everyone is since when do you take what an agent says to the media as gospel? Agents will always word everything very carefully, especially through the media, in a way that either makes them or their clients look better.

Whether the Jays made an offer or not doesn't bother me in the least bit as I was convinced Price was never coming back here regardless, I've said as much in this thread.

The team as it stands is better than last year's starting roster, whether that translates to the same team as the first half or second half remains to be seen. There are a ton of improvements that could/will be made, so only time will tell.