Montador's family sues NHL. Claims fighting leads to depression & addiciton

[heep223]

I have a really hard time with this issue.

On the one hand, the team doctors should not let him play. Naturally he wants to be out there helping his team. The docs have an obligation to stop him and look after his health, they know better than he does.

On the other hand, surely he knows the risks that he's taking when being diagnosed with a concussion and then playing regardless. He needs to look after his own health, he's played hockey his whole life, he knows the risks. Plus it's not like it's a question of livelihood - he has a guaranteed contract. Though a bit grey there because it could affect future contracts if he is seen as injury prone.

I don't really know where I stand. The league certainly needs to continue to do more to address this issue. Stiffer penalties for headshots and possibly take fighting right out of the game. But the players have to accept some of the responsibility as well. I mean, these are guys who refused to wear helmets....then refused to wear visors....and something like 99% of NHLers want to keep fighting in the game. At what point do we hold them accountable for their injuries as a result? If I wanted to work a really high paying but dangerous job, such as ??? (someone help me out here), I should be able to do so and I understand the risks of doing so without having to sue the company if I get hurt.

I think the conclusion is that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

He died from CTE issues which were the direct result of his own actions. Sucks that he died, but to blame the NHL for that is pretty ridiculous to me. No one stood behind Montador with a gun and told him to play in the NHL. He knew there was risk of getting seriously hurt, and he willingly accepted it.

If he was unable to properly judge his state of readiness due to neglect or malpractice by the team and it's doctors, does your opinion change?

Dave Babytch broke his ankle. He was told he could play on it. No one put a gun to his head to play, but he was told he could play.

He later won his lawsuit against the team doctor.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by heep223

I have a really hard time with this issue.

On the one hand, the team doctors should not let him play. Naturally he wants to be out there helping his team. The docs have an obligation to stop him and look after his health, they know better than he does.

On the other hand, surely he knows the risks that he's taking when being diagnosed with a concussion and then playing regardless. He needs to look after his own health, he's played hockey his whole life, he knows the risks. Plus it's not like it's a question of livelihood - he has a guaranteed contract. Though a bit grey there because it could affect future contracts if he is seen as injury prone.

I don't really know where I stand. The league certainly needs to continue to do more to address this issue. Stiffer penalties for headshots and possibly take fighting right out of the game. But the players have to accept some of the responsibility as well. I mean, these are guys who refused to wear helmets....then refused to wear visors....and something like 99% of NHLers want to keep fighting in the game. At what point do we hold them accountable for their injuries as a result? If I wanted to work a really high paying but dangerous job, such as ??? (someone help me out here), I should be able to do so and I understand the risks of doing so without having to sue the company if I get hurt.

I think the conclusion is that the truth is somewhere in the middle.

When your ability to make reasoned decisions for yourself is impacted by the injury you should have no responsibility to look out for yourself.

His mind was impaired as a direct result of his injury. He was incapable of making that decision for himself. It is one of the reasons behind the mandatory concussion protocol.

[Dr. Doom]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

I have a fear that social justice warriors and lawsuits will eventually tank great sports like boxing and MMA.

Nostradamus type views here:

This is only the beginning for the NHL, this will only get worse for them unfortunately. The league will be dragged through the mud in the coming years.
NHL will try to continue to make this issue go away, but eventually either through one big court ruling or an even more serious incident—
Fighting will be removed through league rule and the concussion protocols will be strengthened to a point where hitting could naturally disappear as well. Essentially players will be scared to throw checks.
NFL will continue to be able to deflect given its much larger American influence. But eventually it starts to creep there as well.

Largely storytelling of course, but when you read that article it’s a serious medical issue being discovered and science / courts will eventually prevail.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The person running the red light was breaking the law, what exactly was the NHL doing that was illegal?

Promoting bare-knuckle boxing as part of the tradition of its game?
Internal pressures to do anything to keep your livelihood, including the participating in the above, likely against the will of the players? (gun to your head? No, but pretty damn close)
Little to no support net for those who leave the game with these issues?
Lack of meaningful action in the face of scientific evidence of problems?

Not to mention things that are "illegal" within the parameters of the game. Being chased down and punched after laying a clean hit is not something that should be expected by a player, but it happens. Sucker punches in scrums? Dirty flying elbows to the head? All "illegal" under the rules of the game, should a player be taking liability for their injuries if they occur from something against the rules? What if the NHL knew those complications would persist and did nothing to stop any of the above issues?

I'm not saying all these things are necessarily true, and it would go case by case, but they are possible reasons why the NHL may have liability on these issues.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by flamesfan1297

In that video, Yes, what Franzen did was cheap, and that is the type of stuff that needs to be taken out of the game. But, at the same time, Montador isn't exactly innocent either in that play. He gives Franzen a shot to the back of the head/neck area, holds him in the corner, where he is giving Franzen shots, and then continues to hold him all the way to the front of the net. Not saying what Franzen did was right, but Montador wasn't right either.

What is your point here other than trying to justify a sucker punch? One play likely led to a concussion and one was a defenseman shoving a forward as what happens in every single game. You call that a shot to the head? All he does is give him a shove on the ice.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

I have a fear that social justice warriors and lawsuits will eventually tank great sports like boxing and MMA.

I used to think boxing was a great sport. Now I think it is wrong for athletes to risk probable permanent brain damage for my entertainment.

I don't know if it can be made safer.

[Coach]

Originally Posted by heep223

On the other hand, surely he knows the risks that he's taking when being diagnosed with a concussion and then playing regardless. He needs to look after his own health, he's played hockey his whole life, he knows the risks.

How is he expected to know any of these things? Especially as someone who started their career before this stuff started to really make waves. He's a hockey player, with barely a high school education (in most cases). He understands playing hockey. He's played on broken foots, what does a headache matter? It matters significantly more, even if it hurts significantly less. We are just starting to understand this now. Sure, he may have a limp for the rest of his life from the foot thing, or get some arthritis in broken down joints, but having a debilitated mind is in a totally different stratosphere of problem.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Montador became an NHL regular in 2004. The science wasn't what it is now, but people were starting to become aware, and there's also the common sense factor. Pretty easy for people to deduct that repeatedly getting hit in the head isn't a good thing.

I consider myself a reasonably intelligent and well informed person. I don't think I ever once heard of CTE until the publication of the Boogaard biography in 2011. The Center for the Study of Traumatic Encephalopathy (CSTE) did not begin serious research on the long term effects of multiple concussions until 2008. I suspect that given the dearth of actual clinical work on CTE until this time it is unreasonable to expect that ANYONE outside of the medical profession was even remotely well informed about the risks of sports related long term and repeated head trauma. It is ridiculous to expect that "common sense" would serve as an acceptable measure or these risks under these circumstances.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

They were starting to make a big deal about concussions back in the late 90's when I was playing high school football.

I am interested to know what sort of a "big deal" was made in your experience. Were you informed that recurring concussions could kill you, or that they dramatically increased your risk of premature dementia? Were you informed about the potential for long term debilitating effects that would dramatically alter the course of your life?

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Does anyone actually believe that Montador would have quit playing hockey even if he was 100% aware of the risks that we are today? Not a chance.

You quite frankly have no idea, and this is absolutely besides the point. Projecting what Montador's decision about his career choice might have been with different information does not in any way excuse the NHL and the NHLPA for their part in facilitating and enabling the problem. This is vapid.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The person running the red light was breaking the law, what exactly was the NHL doing that was illegal?

If they had a contractual or common law duty of care to Montador (which they probably did) and didn't take proper care to fulfil that duty , it's a tort, which I guess you could call "illegal".

The guy running a red light is breaking a municipal statute and maybe the HTA. It's not a crime and it's not why he gets sued. He gets sued for exactly the same as the NHL - for breaching a common law duty of care.

That will be $100, please.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by N-E-B

...They know the risks involved...

Originally Posted by FireItUp

I don't get it...I'm pretty sure every fight he was in was his choice.

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

...players make a choice to play, and they should take responsibility for that...

...I don't think players can claim ignorance on the issue though as it's been common knowledge for years now that concussions have long term effects.

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

Every time a professional hockey player steps on the ice, they know the risks...

I am very interested to know what it is so many people believe that players know about the risks. As already mentioned a few times in this thread, the things that we NOW KNOW about in incredible dangers of CTE are things that the general public most certainly DID NOT KNOW even five or six years ago

There is an enormous difference between knowing that concussions are bad, and knowing that repeated head trauma and multiple concussions will potentially kill you, or will dramatically increase the risks to your own ability to live anything approaching a normal life.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Geeoff

I have a fear that social justice warriors and lawsuits will eventually tank great sports like boxing and MMA.

I for one certainly hope so.

The sooner we as a society outgrow our juvenile instinctive bloodlust, the better we will all be for it.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The person running the red light was breaking the law, what exactly was the NHL doing that was illegal?

I think that a much more apt comparison of this issue is the inherent dangers and legal prescriptions that govern smoking. How many years did tobacco companies continue to knowingly market a lethal product to a woefully ill informed public? For how long did these companies benefit from legal protection on the basis of their own reprehensible propaganda?

In time, I expect we will come to look at this situation in similar terms. No, we can't protect everyone all the time from their own poor judgement. However, this does not excuse from doing everything reasonable within our power to educate, to legislate, and to refrain from enabling actions and behaviours that are this dangerous.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The person running the red light was breaking the law, what exactly was the NHL doing that was illegal?

I think that a much more apt comparison of this issue is the inherent dangers and legal prescriptions that govern smoking. How many years did tobacco companies continue to knowingly market a lethal product to a woefully ill informed public? For how long did these companies benefit from legal protection on the basis of their own reprehensible propaganda?

In time, I expect we will come to look at this situation in similar terms. No, we can't protect everyone all the time from their own poor judgement. However, this does not excuse from doing everything reasonable within our power to educate, to legislate, and to refrain from enabling actions and behaviours that are this dangerous.

[PepsiFree]

Wouldn't this whole issue be solved if the NHL took educating their players on the risks of the sport seriously, and had contracts in place when a player gets injured stating that they KNOW the long term risks of playing through that injury?

Maybe it's not about taking fighting or hitting out of the game. If the NHL took the health of it's players seriously it wouldn't be in this mess. The real problem in the NHL is the tough guy culture that suggests if you can skate and shoot the puck, you can play.

We all like that the NHL is right up there with Rugby for having the toughest guys. Do we really want them to be known for having the dumbest?

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Wouldn't this whole issue be solved if the NHL took educating their players on the risks of the sport seriously, and had contracts in place when a player gets injured stating that they KNOW the long term risks of playing through that injury?

Maybe it's not about taking fighting or hitting out of the game. If the NHL took the health of it's players seriously it wouldn't be in this mess. The real problem in the NHL is the tough guy culture that suggests if you can skate and shoot the puck, you can play.

We all like that the NHL is right up there with Rugby for having the toughest guys. Do we really want them to be known for having the dumbest?

I don't disagree with this, however where is the PA in all of this and why are they not trying to educate their members as well? Isn't the whole point of the union to act in the best interest for the players?

Edit: Correct me if I am wrong, but the NHL can't just implement anything without the green light from the union?

[TheAlpineOracle]

So where does it end? I work a very stressful job. This has a direct impact on my mental and physical health, and despite my company not educating me on that, I'm well aware of it. If someday I decide i've had enough and commit harm to myself or I have a heart attack is it's my firm's fault? Would it be reasonable for my family to sue my firm because they directly caused me mental and physical anguish? I don't think it is. At the end of the day, I made the decision to come to work every day, I made the decision to work 12 hours days, and I made the decision not to seek other lines of employment. I also reaped the benefit of those actions.

These law suits are a very slippery slope, and are just as applicable to other professions as they are professional athletes. At some point a grown adult must take responsibilities for their own actions, or lack of action to mitigate their own risk. We aren't talking about children here.

[Hockeyguy15]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

So where does it end? I work a very stressful job. This has a direct impact on my mental and physical health, and despite my company not educating me on that, I'm well aware of it. If someday I decide i've had enough and commit harm to myself or I have a heart attack is it's my firm's fault? Would it be reasonable for my family to sue my firm because they directly caused me mental and physical anguish? I don't think it is. At the end of the day, I made the decision to come to work every day, I made the decision to work 12 hours days, and I made the decision not to seek other lines of employment.

These law suits are a very slippery slope, and are just as applicable to other professions as they are professional athletes.

Isn't this an issue with EMT's lately?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Hockeyguy15

I don't disagree with this, however where is the PA in all of this and why are they not trying to educate their members as well? Isn't the whole point of the union to act in the best interest for the players?

The PA is an insulting joke. The worst example of a union. Protecting the pocket books of the richest and the jobs of the worthless.

That said, I think it's up to the NHL to protect themselves legally through proper education and serious standards. I would not count on a players union to do that for you.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

Wouldn't this whole issue be solved if the NHL took educating their players on the risks of the sport seriously, and had contracts in place when a player gets injured stating that they KNOW the long term risks of playing through that injury?

I don't think this would be all that effective. What it does do is absolve the right governing bodies of their culpability, but it doesn't really do anything to protect the players, nor to actively reduce the incidence of CTE, which really ought to be the primary goal. As members of a civilized society, we bear some responsibility at some point for legislating against self destructive behaviours.